ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!

[Tiberius1701]

Boy I'm coming into this late - hope anyone is still reading, but here's my idea...

Have a special page, where commonly made points by people on both sides are presented, followed by the counterpoints to those sides. Just one paragraph with a response paragraph.

How you go about constructing this page I'm not sure. One option would be to just write it, another would be to have a thread to submit arguments then pick from that.

Later, as you see the same issue emmerging over and over, you can add it, along with the most common counterpoint on the page.

The point of such a page would be to help minimize the recurrence of old-hat issues by new posters who didn't know any better.

 

[Masked Cucumber]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Lady Conqueror:
^Probably a little too early to tell for sure just yet, but I think I've been getting a few less 'notify mod' messages.

Might be because some of us decided it wasn't worth our while to show up here to post.

Edited : I noticed I was too negative in my post and that I should at least explain what I meant. I posted regularly in the Enterprise forum for a while but I felt that fans of the show were targetted by trolls and that the moderators, in a misguided attempt at apparent fairness, were allowing them full access to the victims. As a fan of the show, I did not need this. I had come here in the first place to chat with individuals who cared, I did not need that attitude in my life.

There has been changes from that time. However, these changes are not enough to make me want to come here more often.

I remain,

The Masked Cucumber

 

[TheWrathOfHan]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Just a small suggestion, and I appologise if someone already brought this up (I don't have the time to read all these posts. Though from what I read, I pretty much agree with most comments).

In an effort to alleviate the tensions between all sides of Enterprise fandom (like or dislike, or in the middle):

Many message boards have a seperate forums where the users are allowed more freedom in their posts. For example, at one particular board I frequent, there's a forum called "The Toilet Bowl" where moderation is lighter and the users can feel free to make complaints about what they do not like. If a user wants to berate something they can come there and do so. I suggest something similar in our situation.

Or how about seperate Enterprise forums where users who feel the need to overly dislike the show, can post their thoughts freely and discuss them with like-minded people? Or, perhaps another forum of the contrary?

You see, I think that the main problem is that the Enterprise forum (and other Trek forums here) are grouped into that of topics about it in a general nature. This naturally makes topics appear that one person will not like, and another other will (that's life). But, if seperate Enterprise (and other Trek series) forums were established, people would feel more okay with posting what they think in the respective place.

I'm not saying at all that users should not still post in the oppisite forum, just that they be expected that many people are going to disagree with them and that they should be ready to discuss their opinion, intellegently, and civily.

There could be a forum to discuss improvments needed to the show (including improvents in story writing, acting, etc.), one for reviews of current episodes (whether negative or positive), a series comparasion forum, and simply keep the general forums as they are. The same kind of discussions that go on in the new forums could still be allowed here, but would be encouraged to remain really, really, civil.

I know, it's a crazy idea, but I believe it has some merrit. I think something similar to my idea would work if given a chance to.

 

[Noname Given]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I'm a bit late responding to this thread as well. Took a 3 week vacation to Lady C's neck of the woods (Australia); and just got back and got over the jet lag.

A lot of good points by all; and most of my pet peeves have been mentioned and discussed at length. I've also been guilty of many things mentioned above at times, but in the spirit of this thread will try to watch that stuff in the future.

As far as the Austrailian trip, late at night, I caught a fair amount of Channel 9 programming (some very late night TNG and DS9 repeats after a day of touring); and I must say, I didn't see what all the fuss was since Nine's promos, commercial breaks, etc. didn't seem any better or worse (ie it's just as stupid, annoying and inane) then what we get in the U.S. Anyhow, you live in a fun country to toup, Lady C. I saw Sydney, Melbourne, Alice Springs, Aeyer's Rock, and Cairns (the Great barrier Reef).

 

[Lady Conqueror]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^The problem is the time they're shown Noname - sadly DS9 wasn't repeats, it's just that they've only gotten around to showing it now and that's the time it's generally shown And then these things are pre-empted anytime a stupid special (generally hosted by Eddie MacGuire).

Rant over - for now

Glad you enjoyed the trip over here though - I grew up in Nth Qld with the Great Barrier Reef at my doorstep

To the poster who suggested splitting up the forums - i don't think it would be feasible. Firstly the bandwidth and trouble to create the new forums would probably be too much hassle for the board owner - and then all the other Trek forums might want it too if we have it.

And Yes we are reading everything in this thread so anytime you think of something feel free to add it in.

 

[Cyrus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Masked Cucumber:
I posted regularly in the Enterprise forum for a while but I felt that fans of the show were targetted by trolls and that the moderators, in a misguided attempt at apparent fairness, were allowing them full access to the victims. As a fan of the show, I did not need this. I had come here in the first place to chat with individuals who cared, I did not need that attitude in my life.

There has been changes from that time. However, these changes are not enough to make me want to come here more often.

I know what you mean. I stopped posting here for a while as it had gotten real bad. But now it's much better. I hope you reconsider and post more often.

 

[Masked Cucumber]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Cyrus:
(snip)
I know what you mean. I stopped posting here for a while as it had gotten real bad. But now it's much better. I hope you reconsider and post more often.

Thanks for the invite but why should I come back heavily to post? If I look at the first two pages of the Forum I find every thread to be negative, including one that plays on the title of an episode to state that it is "crap". I thought trolling using alternate spelling was prohibited, I guess I was wrong.

I try to go to one or two light hearted threads in the hope of finding someone who actually has something to say that extends beyond "Enterprise is crap" but it is not easy.

I find at this time that the Enterprise forum is still the home of the most trolls on Trekbbs, even more than Voyager ever was. While the tone has definitely changed, this is not enough to make it a friendly atmosphere.

I remain,

The Masked Cucumber

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

OK, I may be pointing out the elephant in the living room, but someone has to say it.

Suppose the reason many of the threads are negative is because most of the people think the show, or the episodes in question, are indeed crap?

Is that a problem with the forum? Or is it a problem with the show?

There have been good episodes, and better shows, and the tone of the forum has been less "negative" during those periods. Similarly, Voyager -oft thought to be among the worst of Trekkian incarnations- endured a razing in its VOY forum that has now mostly blown over, leaving behind a dedicated few fans who really, really, really love Voyager.

Suppose, and I'm not saying it's true, but just for the sake of the argument - that Voyager and Enterprise - were both really bad TV in the opinion of most people and most ST fans (whether that opinion was well-founded or not). Now, if that was true - and I'm not saying that it is, how do you expect that would affect the forums dedicated to discussing them? Would they be "positive"? Should they be positive?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Nephandus:
Suppose the reason many of the threads are negative is because most of the people think the show, or the episodes in question, are indeed crap?

I don't think that you could support that by a scientific sampling of the posts here in the last two months. Most people seem to rather like the show these days.

However, topics aren't started by the majority of posters or by groups of posters -- they're started by individuals. If one person thinks it's clever to refer to "Carpenter Street" as "Crapenter Street" in the title of their thread, they've enlarged the relative visibility of their single (vulgarly expressed) opinion quite a bit by so doing.

 

[Ptrope]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
If one person thinks it's clever to refer to "Carpenter Street" as "Crapenter Street" in the title of their thread, they've enlarged the relative visibility of their single (vulgarly expressed) opinion quite a bit by so doing.

I hate to say it, but repeated and singular replies to posts with "Absolutely Right™" are pretty much the same thing.

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^^^
True enough to both of you.
However, Dennis, I was not attempting to ascertain the veracity of the Masked Cucumber 's reason for his distaste of the forum's tone. I was taking his perception as a given. All things being relative, the forum was apparently not positive enough in his opinion for his liking (and he's more than entitled to that opinion - which I agree with completely).

The only issue I have with his post is that it assumes a problem with the forum, where I don't necessarily see that as the case. This does not seem to be an unreasonable stance, at least to me, so far.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Ptrope:

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
If one person thinks it's clever to refer to "Carpenter Street" as "Crapenter Street" in the title of their thread, they've enlarged the relative visibility of their single (vulgarly expressed) opinion quite a bit by so doing.

I hate to say it, but repeated and singular replies to posts with "Absolutely Right™" are pretty much the same thing.

Totally Wrong(TM).

Now, if I made a habit of titling threads with it you might have had a point.

 

[8-4-7-2]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

As usually Dennis shows that he will never ever reply to the topic at hand with a direct answer, instead choosing to sidestep valid arguments with snide remarks and wholly irrelevant points.
Anyone else would have had a friendly warning for that long ago

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by 8-4-7-2:
As usually[sic] Dennis shows that he will never ever reply to the topic at hand with a direct answer, instead choosing to sidestep valid arguments with snide remarks and wholly irrelevant points.
Anyone else would have had a friendly warning for that long ago

This is quite far from the truth. In this case I replied to Ptrope's opinion of my use of a certain phrase by quoting his brief post in its entirety and pointing out why I didn't think his comparison was accurate.

 

[Masked Cucumber]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by 8-4-7-2:
As usually Dennis shows that he will never ever reply to the topic at hand with a direct answer, instead choosing to sidestep valid arguments with snide remarks and wholly irrelevant points.
Anyone else would have had a friendly warning for that long ago

I could not find a better example than this post to demonstrate what is wrong with the Enterprise Forum and why I have chosen to spend as little time as possible in here. Dennis Bailey makes an insightful and funny post only to be replied to by a personal attack.

I remain,

The Masked Cucumber

 

[8-4-7-2]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

If you had spend more time here you might have realized that 90% of Dennis' posts consist of personal attacks and off topic remarks. There was nothing insightful or funny in his post

PTrope rightfully remarked that Dennis doesn't contribute anything worthwhile to threads by replying with "Absolutely Right". So instead of directly commenting on that he decides to dodge that argument and replies with something to the effect of "But I haven't put that in thread titles"

 

[Masked Cucumber]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by 8-4-7-2:
(snip)
PTrope rightfully remarked that Dennis doesn't contribute anything worthwhile to threads by replying with "Absolutely Right". So instead of directly commenting on that he decides to dodge that argument and replies with something to the effect of "But I haven't put that in thread titles"

Most of us have little to contribute to anything useful. This is a Trek board for Fortune's sake.

Most posters do not answer what others have to say. In fact, there are very few people I would engage in a conversation with on this Board. I will repeat that your post was a direct attack on Dennis bailey and exemplifies what is wrong about this Forum.

Allow me to talk in general though.

One. The very nature of the Forum is to attract individuals who are more than regular fans. Most of us are more than the regular fans. We go the extra step to show up on the BBS to talk about the show. We are not the average public.

Two. The Enterprise Forum is very active. Since Enterprise is the current Trek show, it will be the Forum that attracts the most people.

Three. Trolls seek attention. Self explanatory. Just to add to that point, Trolls find pleasure in finding public victims who will react to what they do. Both the attention and the reaction is what causes them to have fun. Trolling is also a spectator sport. There is very little trolling taking place in the Gaming Forum. Must be a very solitary job being the Moderator in there. "Arrrooooo, there are wolves out here..." .

Four. The combination of One, Two and Three mean that Trolls will be showing up in the Enterprise Forum to find the largest number of victims and spectators.

Five. Fans generate the traffic. Traffic generate revenue. Revenue allows the TrekBBS to survive. Survival allows the fans to show up and ad infinitum. Chasing the fan away means there is a cut in the chain. Negative posters who chase the fans away do not generate revenue, on the contrary.

Six. There can be no neutral moderation. Moderating the TrekBBS means that the Moderator (unless an outsider) will be a Trek fan. He/she/it will approach the work from the point of view of a fan (one can never disconnect oneself completely). It cannot be otherwise and it is pointless to pretend otherwise. Once this is admitted to and the Mods stop trying to play the "neutral" game, things will only improve. A Moderator who hates Enterprise will allow stuff to go through with a chuckle while the rest of us will, rightly so, see it as a direct trolling attempt.

Seven. Therefore, the Moderating must be done in the hope of creating a positive environment to discuss the show. By its very nature, this will be oriented towards the fans who like the show.

At the moment, the Forum is not Fan friendly, it is definitely basher friendly and while the fans are not longer as openly taunted, there remains a lot of work to be done to create an environment where those interested in talking about the show can feel safe in showing up.

I remain,

The Masked Cucumber

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Masked Cucumber: Five. Fans generate the traffic.

Discussion generates traffic. And difference of opinion, not agreement, generate discussion on a BBS - especially when the show itself fails to be provocative on its own.

Just ask the 5 or so people who frequent the VOY forum, now that most of trolls have been driven away, along with most of the other critics who don't bother going there either.

IMO the only thing keeping this forum churning is the constant sparring between those criticizing and those defending. When nobody seems to care enough about the characters or premise - people end up talking about wigs, tits, outfits, timelines and Romulans. You drop the critics or the defenders for, say a week or two, and I guarantee you are going to have tumbleweeds blowing across this dustbowl.

 

[Masked Cucumber]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Nephandus:
(snip) You drop the critics or the defenders for, say a week or two, and I guarantee you are going to have tumbleweeds blowing across this dustbowl.

Really? The Voyager Forum is healthy enough and it used to be the "hive of infamy" (don't know if I am getting the Obi Wan Kenobi quote right ) that the Enterprise Forum has become. I have come to the conclusion that the Voyager trolls have migrated here.

Oh, and while discussion may generate traffic, it can only happen if the fans stick here. If they don't the trolls won't talk between themselves, they will just move.

I remain,

The Masked Cucumber

 

[Stewey]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Masked Cucumber:Allow me to talk in general though.

One. The very nature of the Forum is to attract individuals who are more than regular fans. Most of us are more than the regular fans. We go the extra step to show up on the BBS to talk about the show. We are not the average public.

Untrue, the forum is open to discussion (not disgushion) from anyone with an Internet connection and a general interest in Trek. This forum is but one part of a greater whole, a whole in which people from every scale of a society frequents. Some are not the average public as demonstrated by the number of "celebrity" posters who include writers, and production people from both new Trek and old, but most are just normal people who have some interest in Trek.

Two. The Enterprise Forum is very active. Since Enterprise is the current Trek show, it will be the Forum that attracts the most people.

I agree, it is very active because this show happens to be carrying the torch of the franchise. This by nature is bound to generate interest from both critics and its defenders; there would be something very wrong if it didn't.

Three. Trolls seek attention. Self explanatory. Just to add to that point, Trolls find pleasure in finding public victims who will react to what they do. Both the attention and the reaction is what causes them to have fun. Trolling is also a spectator sport. There is very little trolling taking place in the Gaming Forum. Must be a very solitary job being the Moderator in there. "Arrrooooo, there are wolves out here..." .

Trolls show up everywhere and on every board, its nothing new and most of the time they get punished.

Four. The combination of One, Two and Three mean that Trolls will be showing up in the Enterprise Forum to find the largest number of victims and spectators.

A minority will, but as we have seen this forum really has settled down to a point where both critics and fans can debate and discuss without much fear of either side bringing things down to a personal confrontation.

Five. Fans generate the traffic. Traffic generate revenue. Revenue allows the TrekBBS to survive. Survival allows the fans to show up and ad infinitum. Chasing the fan away means there is a cut in the chain. Negative posters who chase the fans away do not generate revenue, on the contrary.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, I know I can't bash brnnonbraga.com here but an observation there is that there is actually only a small group of people posting there, and there is a very strict policy of moderation which only allows fans of the show and Brannon Braga in particular to post there, in essence its a deader forum than our gaming forum and I don't believe that’s an understatement.

Even if Enterprise was to be cancelled, this BBS will survive; did merchandise manufacturers go out of business in the 70's when no Trek was made until 1979? My point is that Trek is hugely popular whether it's on television or not, I don't see the other forums being barren and deserted.

Six. There can be no neutral moderation. Moderating the TrekBBS means that the Moderator (unless an outsider) will be a Trek fan. He/she/it will approach the work from the point of view of a fan (one can never disconnect oneself completely). It cannot be otherwise and it is pointless to pretend otherwise. Once this is admitted to and the Mods stop trying to play the "neutral" game, things will only improve. A Moderator who hates Enterprise will allow stuff to go through with a chuckle while the rest of us will, rightly so, see it as a direct trolling attempt.

Neutral moderation can work, I originally opposed the appointment of LadyConqurer because she's an enthusiastic fan of the show, but I was proved wrong because I think she's been quite fair and as a basher I wouldn't so easily admit to something like that. The other new moderators seem to be doing a good job and choosing mods that regularly post here anyway has certainly helped things.

Seven. Therefore, the Moderating must be done in the hope of creating a positive environment to discuss the show. By its very nature, this will be oriented towards the fans who like the show.

Again, refer back to my comments about brannonbraga.com.

At the moment, the Forum is not Fan friendly, it is definitely basher friendly and while the fans are not longer as openly taunted, there remains a lot of work to be done to create an environment where those interested in talking about the show can feel safe in showing up.

Untrue, this forum is neither basher friendly or gusher friendly, both sides have good opportunities to have their say and discuss the show and to express themselves.