ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by 1001001:
You and everyone else here already agreed to follow that strategy when they opened their accounts. It's not a suggestion, it's not optional. That is exactly and very explicitly what's expected of all of us. We'll get to it as soon as we possibly can, honestly.

Digits I do respect the work you do here. It makes it a better place. Without getting into specific cases here, IMO the overwhelming amount of nastiness is below the radar stuff that does NOT necessarily fit the definition of flaming or trolling, as expressed in TrekBBS rules. Low intensity conflict.

I'm not saying this to play silly bugger here. My point has wide ranging implications. There is nothing in TrekBBS rules or contract that forbids condescension, mockery, hostility, and vague insinuation, providing they don't cross the line into outright flaming or trolling. The hostility behind these kinds of transactions, whether "provoked" or not, is no different from the kind that fits the definition of the prohibited posts. It's just more skillfully or patiently concealed.

In some cases, (though not always), I've thought that in an extended exchange like that, the one who simply cuts the crap and says it plainly is the more honest of the two (and may well have been "provoked" for quite some time with non-warnable material). Not that I condone "cracking" like that and letting loose with both barrels, but if we are interested in preventing hostility rather than meting out wrath and judgment, then perhaps it IS a good idea to look more closely at the shit that slings below the radar. How though?

Being excellent to each other is all fine and dandy, but when you turn the other cheek enough times for non-warnable hostility, sooner or later someone will dish back at the same level, and it may not even be the offended party. For low-intensity stuff, it may even seem to afford it undue weight and recognition to bother a mod with it. At least, that's my own thought process when I'm dealing with it.

I don't know really if something like that can be fixed or moderated effectively.

 

[ontrack]

I am not going to comment at this stage about the content of posts but rather the format of posts.

Short posts are easy to read. But some of the longer posts are dificult to read without punctuation. Sentences should start with a capital letter. Long comments should be broken down into paragraphs.

Most posters achieve a reasonal standard of grammar and literacy in their posts but there are a few who can post long replies without even a single capital letter.

What do our honorable moderators think about punctuation, paragraphs and spelling in posts?

 

[DaveyNY]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

OK, I've read this whole thread and find it all quite interesting.
Just about everybody here agrees that we should all be nicer and I can happily agree with that.

That said, I want to take this opportunity to apologize to the few ENTERPRISE posters that I know I have been rude and insulting to in the past. I don't post often, but when I do I usually have my dander up about something someone else has typed and I forget my manners.

I think many of the swipes that we take at each other, in part, is due to the very impersonal nature of this medium (as someone mentioned above.) Most of us realize that some of our actions here, would be considered very questionable behaviour in the "real world" and yet the impersonalness of the internet seems to just draw out our nasty natures (for those of you who have managed to keep that part of your "nature" under control I say, "Bravo".)
Unfortunatelly, I have to admit that on occaision I've done a poor job of keeping my "nastyness" under control and again, I wish to apologize to those that have come under fire from my posts on those occaisions and to everyone else who has had to put up with it.


I guess the best we all can do is to try to remind ourselves each and every time we enter the forum that ...today I'm not going to be nasty... to borrow and paraphrase a well known starship captain.


One last thing, a big thank you to the Mod's for giving us the opportunity to express ourselves on this subject in such a great way and for the chance for some of us to wipe the slate clean so-to-speak, and begin anew.

David

 

[Miss Thang]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Edit: Oopsie. My comment echoes commodore64's on the previous page. Am switching my brand of crack as we speak.

^^Yes, I agree. There've been times when I thought, well surely someone's going to come in here and regulate this egregious shit, a la Warren G. Then they don't.

I know this has come up before in MA--if you have more mods, that may mean more moderation, which some read as more control from the (board) Man.

Maybe we need an army of narks.

Edit: ontrack, I agree that it's more difficult to read posts that aren't capitalized and/or punctuated, but I think it's important to note that lots of extremely smart people with learning disabilities have difficulty with such things. Standard mechanics do not equal smarts or literacy.

 

[John Sullivan]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by daveyNY:

Just about everybody here agrees that we should all be nicer and I can happily agree with that.

That said, I want to take this opportunity to apologize to the few ENTERPRISE posters that I know I have been rude and insulting to in the past.

You can't hold a candle to me, dude in the backlog of undelivered apologies ... to some.

I think many of the swipes that we take at each other, in part, is due to the very impersonal nature of this medium.
Most of us realize that some of our actions here, would be considered very questionable behaviour in the "real world."

Perhaps that's where I went wrong. I feel like the poor guy that everyone played a trick on by inviting to a costume party but forgetting to mention that this is not the real world here - everyone is hiding under some mask. If I tried to look up T'Bonz in the phone book, well, chances are pretty damned good I'll never find her name there. (These days one can never be sure, especially if the name of your home town is a real place).

But when you see John Sullivan in the phone book, the real world is what you'll find there. And when you see this guy out and about, yes, it's the real thing:

It never occured to me that this WASN'T the real world here, where people could convey anything about themselves as they want (such as LC's REAL picture, which by the way in my humble opinion is far better looking than the malnourished "Twins" she uses as an avatar - I don't know who these twins are, but relatives of them, please locate them and send them some food money).


A lot of times when I got upset here, it's because I forgot to put on the Batman costume. It's just fine for the Joker to take on Batman. But beating up Bruce Wayne is kind of unfair. In my humble opinion. I mean life would have been much better for me if I were a cartoon character in the Sunday funnies with all of you imaginary people. And when I get attacked by a cartoon character, it's really hard to fight back fairly. 2.5 years ago when joining this board, I didn't know better. Only later would I learn that "Sam Cogley" is just another cartoon character, as are almost all of the other people here, with VERY rare exceptions, and almost all of those people fall under the category of "public figure." I don't. Start paying me a hell of a lot better, I might change my mind. (BTW, just linked the TREK BBS onto my site).

... and yet the impersonalness of the internet seems to just draw out our nasty natures ...

No, the anger that resulted in not understanding the impersonalities of this forum and the masquerades of the posters (and you all REALLY think Sussman hasn't posted here since May? - I know better!) is where I went wrong.

I guess the best we all can do is to try to remind ourselves each and every time we enter the forum that ...today I'm not going to be nasty... to borrow and paraphrase a well known starship captain.

Good post. Thank you. And just think, all this time I thought Miss Thang was a really animated personality. Shows you what I know.

One last thing, a big thank you to the Mod's for giving us the opportunity to express ourselves on this subject in such a great way and for the chance for some of us to wipe the slate clean so-to-speak, and begin anew.

Amen. Hopefully this will be my last post on this or any other subject, but I do want to leave with a smile on my face.

 

[1001001]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Nephandus:

Posted by 1001001:
You and everyone else here already agreed to follow that strategy when they opened their accounts. It's not a suggestion, it's not optional. That is exactly and very explicitly what's expected of all of us. We'll get to it as soon as we possibly can, honestly.

Digits I do respect the work you do here. It makes it a better place. Without getting into specific cases here, IMO the overwhelming amount of nastiness is below the radar stuff that does NOT necessarily fit the definition of flaming or trolling, as expressed in TrekBBS rules. Low intensity conflict.

I'm not saying this to play silly bugger here. My point has wide ranging implications. There is nothing in TrekBBS rules or contract that forbids condescension, mockery, hostility, and vague insinuation, providing they don't cross the line into outright flaming or trolling. The hostility behind these kinds of transactions, whether "provoked" or not, is no different from the kind that fits the definition of the prohibited posts. It's just more skillfully or patiently concealed.

In some cases, (though not always), I've thought that in an extended exchange like that, the one who simply cuts the crap and says it plainly is the more honest of the two (and may well have been "provoked" for quite some time with non-warnable material). Not that I condone "cracking" like that and letting loose with both barrels, but if we are interested in preventing hostility rather than meting out wrath and judgment, then perhaps it IS a good idea to look more closely at the shit that slings below the radar. How though?

Being excellent to each other is all fine and dandy, but when you turn the other cheek enough times for non-warnable hostility, sooner or later someone will dish back at the same level, and it may not even be the offended party. For low-intensity stuff, it may even seem to afford it undue weight and recognition to bother a mod with it. At least, that's my own thought process when I'm dealing with it.

I don't know really if something like that can be fixed or moderated effectively.

To a certain extent, I agree. Again, this goes back to how you post, not what you post. There are different levels of sophistication, and digs at others can be "both subtle and gross".

I think we can do two things as moderators about this: First, is to be as consistent as possible as individuals. When I first joined the staff, someone told me that being a good moderator is like being a good umpire in baseball. Everyone is naturally going to have a bit of a different "strike zone", that is human nature, it can't be helped. But each individual moderator should call them the same way each time.

Love me or hate me, I think everyone here has a very clear understanding of my "strike zone", and hidden digs/condescension/backhanded compliments are right down the middle of the plate. I hate it. I hate smug, self-satisfied rudeness posing as intellectual superiority, and I'll deal with it wherever I see it.

The second thing is to again (and consistently from here on out) encourage people to avoid negative personal commentary. Everyone here should get used to that phrase, because I'm going to be using it a lot as a guideline. If you're making any kind of negative personal comment toward another poster, you're on shaky ground.

You're absolutely right, though, that at the end of the day, we all really have to rely on the goodwill of the regular posters here. Moderations can't solve everything. This is part of the reason I have asked the forum members to focus on what they are willing to change/do differently, rather than what they want others to change.

 

[newbie]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Since the mods frequently refuse to respond to notices or even PM, and since they apply double standards, this is really all a complete waste of time, and completely hypocritical to boot. My fault for falling for it.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by John Sullivan:
Only later would I learn that "Sam Cogley" is just another cartoon character,

Next you'll be telling me there's no Easter Bunny.

as are almost all of the other people here, with VERY rare exceptions, and almost all of those people fall under the category of "public figure." I don't.

Good point, John. It also never occurred to me to separate cyberspace from reality, or conduct myself differently therein. And, while I do use an exceptionally clever alias, my real identity has been posted since I registered and I've left enough breadcrumbs for anybody to track me down if they cared enough. Now I'm wondering how many members do that and how it correlates with their behavior. It's interesting, this desire to interact and remain isolated at the same time; some thought about deeper meanings is warranted here.

Incidentally, I forget who first brought it up, but the horrendous spelling and syntax on the internet drives me crazy, too.

 

[Ptrope]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by John Sullivan:
Only later would I learn that "Sam Cogley" is just another cartoon character, as are almost all of the other people here, with VERY rare exceptions, ...

Well, actually, "Sam Cogley" is a dramatic character, from TOS' "Court Martial." The cartoon character is "Mr. Cogswell" from The Jetsons, although it's certainly possible that Samuel T. Cogley has himself slipped a cog, occasionally

 

[Top41]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Nephandus:
Without getting into specific cases here, IMO the overwhelming amount of nastiness is below the radar stuff that does NOT necessarily fit the definition of flaming or trolling, as expressed in TrekBBS rules. Low intensity conflict.

Without a doubt, this is one of the biggest problems in the forum, if not the biggest. The question is, how to deal with it? I hate to burst bubbles here, but it's not going to come from the mods. Even if we warned for every little rude comment or snotty put-down, it wouldn't necessarily stop people from making them. Believe me, cause we've tried.

Really, on that one, the ball is in each individual's court. We're not asking anyone to tone down their opinions, just how they react/interact with people who have an opposite one. daveyNY and others have made the observation that people interact differently on a message board than IRL. I can see why, but I think it's important to remember, always, that you're talking to people. They might be "faceless" (though my crystal ball is predicting an ENT forum picture/get to know you thread in the future...), but they're still people. Same goes for the producers, actors, etc. who work on the show.

I'll save my long-winded discourse on the internet and the dehumanization of society for TNZ. But I think the forum atmosphere would improve greatly if people just kept that one little detail--that the poster they're responding to is a human being--in mind at all times.

I love the idea of text/commentary coming with notify mod posts. It would be helpful. Some are self-explanatory, but background on others would definitely be useful to the mods.

Another point came up about the mods reading threads. Believe it or not, we split them up and read all the threads in the forum. But it's a huge forum, and we do miss things. We also aren't necessarily going to pick up on every interpersonal problem that occurs throughout the forum/across threads. So, PM us!!! That's the best way to let us know about problems/communicate with us. It can also be a great way to nip things in the bud before they escalate.

Another problem that's come up is the grading thread. I'm torn on this one. I don't want to push things to the point of where we're "controlling" what people post. I like the idea of pros and cons being listed in the grading thread, but I don't want to force that on people. I also don't know if it will solve anything. Just as an example, Stewey grades a lot of the ENT episodes with F grades, but he always gives thoughtful commentary about it. And yet, he gets more criticism than anyone. OTOH, if someone just loved an episode, and gives it an A and says it was great, I don't think we can force them into giving a long discourse on why they liked the episode. We could make the grading thread grades only (vote, and just post the grade), but that seems to defeat the purpose as well.

So, I'd love to hear ideas, because I'm not sure how to solve the grading thread problems. I'd hate to lose the thread altogther, because it's overall a fun thread. Any suggestions?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Samuel T. Cogley is actually one of the most real folks who hangs around these parts -- a guy with a consistent code of behavior and integrity, who while he may adopt a fictional personna never claims to be things IRL that he is not.

This isn't necessarily as true of all of us who use our own names as we would like the simple practice of doing so to imply.

 

[Top41]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
Samuel T. Cogley is actually one of the most real folks who hangs around these parts -- a guy with a consistent code of behavior and integrity, who while he may adopt a fictional personna never claims to be things IRL that he is not.

Agreed completely. He's been missed these last few months.

 

[commodore64]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Miss Thang:
Edit: Oopsie. My comment echoes commodore64's on the previous page. Am switching my brand of crack as we speak.

Well, you can't have my crack, or any other drugs.

Mods, this "alert mods" business is almost like tattling. I think the majority of people see nastiness and 1) try to ignore it and continue posting 2) stay away from it and post elsewhere 3) "defend" an innocent party because they've had good experiences with him/her or 4) pray that someone will stop this before it gets uglier. Maybe it's a combo.

I read a thread about 3 months ago that was 2 pages of one-line nasty responses back and forth between two people. Seemed like a train wreck. After two whole pages of this and more than several hours, a mod came in to break it up with warnings. And, the person smarted back to the mod.

Unfortunately, I think a show of force would quiet down people. I was recently angered by a post, but thought, "Is it worth being permabanned to put [insert alias here] in his/her place?"

People like 23Skiddo, MissThang, Emily have a good reputation and may serve as the eyes and ears of your folks, since you're unable to be everywhere at once.

 

[Top41]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by commodore64:
Mods, this "alert mods" business is almost like tattling. I think the majority of people see nastiness and 1) try to ignore it and continue posting 2) stay away from it and post elsewhere 3) "defend" an innocent party because they've had good experiences with him/her or 4) pray that someone will stop this before it gets uglier. Maybe it's a combo.

It shouldn't be though. After all, the mods make the final call. So really all you're saying is that you think a moderator should look at the post in question. If something bad is going on, it's much better to notify the mods, rather than wait for us to get to the thread during our regular rounds. By then, it can turn into an all-out flame war.

Also, it might be important to note that no one other than the mods can tell who notified the mods, or in most cases, even that the mods were notified.

And you wouldn't be permabanned for flaming someone. Warned, yes, so please don't do it, but no permabanned.

 

[Miss Thang]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Miss Thang:
Edit: Oopsie. My comment echoes commodore64's on the previous page. Am switching my brand of crack as we speak.

Oh, dear. Let me clarify here. I came back and saw this post and realized it could easily be misunderstood. I meant I was switching my brand of crack because I went and posted with arrows without reading the next page first, so the arrows pointed to the wrong post, not commodore64's. I didn't mean I was switching brands of crack because I agreed with commodore64. This is proof that I am not cognitively suited to waking before 10 AM.

commodore, you can share my crack or other drugs any time you want, but I don't recommend it. See what happens to me? Hope I didn't give the wrong impression.

 

[wolf359]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Top41:Another problem that's come up is the grading thread. I'm torn on this one. I don't want to push things to the point of where we're "controlling" what people post. I like the idea of pros and cons being listed in the grading thread, but I don't want to force that on people. I also don't know if it will solve anything. Just as an example, Stewey grades a lot of the ENT episodes with F grades, but he always gives thoughtful commentary about it. And yet, he gets more criticism than anyone. OTOH, if someone just loved an episode, and gives it an A and says it was great, I don't think we can force them into giving a long discourse on why they liked the episode. We could make the grading thread grades only (vote, and just post the grade), but that seems to defeat the purpose as well.

So, I'd love to hear ideas, because I'm not sure how to solve the grading thread problems. I'd hate to lose the thread altogther, because it's overall a fun thread. Any suggestions?

the only way the grading thread can be saved IMHO is that the mods actually moderate it.

warn everybody who attacks another poster over the grade/comment. no matter how weak an attack. it's been stated many times that you argue the point and not the poster. so enforce that rule vigourously. sure some members will serve some time on the banned benches. but if it makes the thread a viable place for everybody to state their opinions without fear of being attacked for them, i think it will be worth it.

just look at the mess in this weeks grading thread. and most of that was caused by a moderator.

 

[reno floyd]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by 1001001:
I hate smug, self-satisfied rudeness posing as intellectual superiority, and I'll deal with it wherever I see it.

This is not an attack, but from where I'm sitting this thread already demonstrates that you don't do that. But I'm heartened you recognize the need to see consistency towards all posters. That's all most of us are asking for.

 

[1001001]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by reno floyd:

Posted by 1001001:
I hate smug, self-satisfied rudeness posing as intellectual superiority, and I'll deal with it wherever I see it.

This is not an attack, but from where I'm sitting this thread already demonstrates that you don't do that. But I'm heartened you recognize the need to see consistency towards all posters. That's all most of us are asking for.

And you have every right to expect that.

All I'm asking for is notification, and time...

 

[NAHTMMM]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Despite my earlier comments, I do like the idea of a grading thread, and I think that the grading threads should be kept. The poll feature allows those who just want to get their opinion in to do just that, and the thread itself also allows those who feel that their comments don't warrant starting their own thread to drop in, comment, and leave.

But my opinion is, if you're convinced that it was such a wonderful (or horrible) episode that it warrants an extreme grade, you ought to be able to express a few reasons why you think it merited that grade. Not just because so-and-so got a lot of screen time, either--how did they utilize that time? Tell us.



(Edit) I meant to mention that not everybody who posts an extreme grade fails to explain their decision, and that there are middle-of-the-road grades that go unexplained too.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by 1001001:
I hate smug, self-satisfied rudeness posing as intellectual superiority, and I'll deal with it wherever I see it.

Well, they're not mutually exclusive.