Endless ammo and other inconsistencies

[Nebusj]

What didn't make sense was them saying they couldn't replace them.

That's like a gunslinger saying he'd never ever ever be able to get more bullets for his gun, despite going to trading posts where they sell bullets. And he had money for them.

Not … really. I mean, why should anyone in the Delta Quadrant know how to make photon torpedoes?

First, they're a weapon developed in the Alpha Quadrant, inspired by whatever inventors had thought them up and whatever economic and military factors led them to being useful. There's not much reason to think that a completely independent science would develop them unless they're a blisteringly obvious byproduct of, say, warp drive or whatever. They were in a part of space where replicators were unknown; how could they guess whether whatever technology provided photon torpedoes was available? (Heck, what if photon torpedoes follow from replicator technology?)

Second, even if something like a photon torpedo is inevitable, there's little reason to think anyone in the Delta Quadrant would have, or even might be able to make, one that fits Voyager. Photon torpedoes are part of a system, and the torpedoes and the torpedo-holding and torpedo-launching systems have evolved together for centuries and which have been optimized for each other.

The gunslinger can expect to buy bullets for his gun because he's likely to be going places that have guns, and because his gun doesn't need bullets that are too finely matched to the particular design of his gun. But even there, if the town doesn't make bullets of a suitable diameter or length, they're useless. And the higher the technology the tougher the match is.

Given enough time, and a suitable industrial base, Voyager could probably trade for photon torpedoes, given time and a trustworthy partner. Could make an interesting story finding such.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Romulans during their century of isolation between the conclusion of the earth Romulan/War and year one of Kirk's historic 5 year mission, invented both the cloak and the Photon Torpedo, which completely changed the game during NBC's ninth episode Balance of Terror.

By episode 19, the Arena, the Federation had cracked and reverse engineered that technology and installed it on the the Enterprise.

(My google fu suggests that there was actually very few uses of the term "photon torpedo" in the original series.)

The photonic weapons that were torpedo like being used in Archer's time, must have been pisspoor dead end technology compared to how the Romulans eventually figured out how to manipulate photons with antimatter, no matter how similarly they seem to be named.

A photon torpedo can blow up a city, and a 23rd century Federation Starship can melt the crust off a planet if it felt the need (Star Fleet Regulation general order 24: A captain can say that if you don't hear from him again in the next 24 hours, assume he's already dead and annihilate the planet he was/is standing on.)

Meanwhile dozens of Photonic torpedoes used in Enterprises last season couldn't make a dent in a 2 thousand year old stone building in the middle of a desert.

 

[Anwar]

Given enough time, and a suitable industrial base, Voyager could probably trade for photon torpedoes, given time and a trustworthy partner. Could make an interesting story finding such.

That's the problem, they shot themselves in the foot by how constrained they made the premise. They more or less included "We can never create a power base for ourselves" as part of the core premise.

If they'd dropped all of that "No support" things, then the show would've been more free to do stuff that could explain all this.

 

[MacLeod]

I would disagree they didn't shoot themselves in the foot by constraining the premise. They shot themselves in the foot by no adhering to their constraints. By using constraints they could make life harder for our heros, sure do you use up something here, which you might need later? risk vs reward. Having a constraint is not always a bad thing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They can't trade federation technology with species that haven't been vetted by the Federation, but they can take, technology, and by take, i do mean buy, ech from any given alien race. Voyager could have had an ever changing exotic array of ever changing armaments, depending on who they were buying weapons off this week.

Of course that would call for irregular special effects and an inability to use stock footage.

But imagine if Voyager had to "trade" something harmless for weapons from the Carebears?

You don't think that the Carebear stare wasn't scary potent?

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Jk4cg5hW0[/yt]

 

[Anwar]

I would disagree they didn't shoot themselves in the foot by constraining the premise. They shot themselves in the foot by no adhering to their constraints. By using constraints they could make life harder for our heros, sure do you use up something here, which you might need later? risk vs reward. Having a constraint is not always a bad thing.

The premise they constrained themselves with basically was "We can never ever make our own replacement weapons or do any repairs at all".

And "No Support" also means they could never make allies, or build up alliances, or become part of any kind of power base. They were completely on their own with no outside aid whatsoever, despite being able to offer aid to outsiders.

So yeah, "No Support" really shot themselves in the foot.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Infinite shuttles are one thing, but I'm more interested in why they kept remodelling the shuttlebay each time we saw it!

 

[MacLeod]

Well and that it seemed to have TARDIS like qualities.

 

[Anwar]

It's not worse than how the TOS Enterprise could do whatever the plot needed it to do.

 

[exodus]

I think only die hard fans care and take note of these things.
Voyager was aimed at the general audience that normally hadn't watched Trek before or only watched TNG, those folks didn't care about how many shuttles lost or torpedos used. They never even noticed. The average person doesn't pay attention to every detail said anyway or never felt until recent times they needed too. Nobody ever cared how it was possible for R2-D2 to do all that he does, they just accept he can.
I think the writers were more focused on the main story than having to fill in what should be minor details. They simply didn't believe people were going to be that anal over the number of torpedos.

Perhpas Christopher but the line was something like "We have no way of replacing of them." Not something like "We'll struggle to replace them". Now as I and others have said all it needed was a line dropped into an episode to explain away why they could now replace them. But as you said another inconsistency was the number of crew seemed to fluctuate up and down between episodes. Sure all these things might be minor details on themeselves but when added together it comes across as the audiance won't notice these things. And yes some part of the audiance might not or not care, but another part would care. It's not like they could get replacements parts/personal or visit or starfleet shipyard inbetween episodes.

Maybe we care too much if we're harping on stuff those in charge don't?

 

[MacLeod]

But then again fans esp. Sci-Fi fans are well known for picking up on these minor details. It's easier to get away with things when you don't say X can't do this. As soon as you've said X can't do this, you've placed a limit. Now of course limits can be broken or changed, audiances will accept it but they generally prefer an explanation. And as I or others have said all it would have taken is a line or two of dialouge in an episode. It wouldn't really have any impact to the casual viewer but perhaps added to it for fans.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It's not worse than how the TOS Enterprise could do whatever the plot needed it to do.

Any Trek ship, more like. DS9's Defiant wasn't designed with a shuttlebay at all, but they had to squeeze one in when the plot demanded it.

Well and that it seemed to have TARDIS like qualities.

Also true of all Trek ships, from Ten Forward in TNG to the entrance corridor to engineering in TMP to the corridor outside the bridge in the new movies, which extends beyond than the front of the ship.
These things used to bother me until I read about how often the Statue of Liberty has been upscaled in movies (Cloverfield: 150% because viewers complained they made it too small in the trailers, Escape From New York: a whopping 500% upscale for the head to block a city street. In real life it looks a lot bigger than it really is)

 

[Guy Gardener]

Whoever wrote that line picked a low number because they wanted the ship to reach a crisis in the final episodes of seaosn one where the last torpedo was fired and then the crew would have to do something creative, build a factory, storm an armory or make an unlikely alliance.

Imagine how less high and mighty this crew would feel if they wound up using salvaged kazon torpedoes that looked like bottle rockets compared to the Photon Torpedoes they used to waste for fireworks back home?

Kazon city ships would keep attacking them, and sure Voyager would keep winning these fights, but at such costs, and to the victors go the spoils, Janeway would strip those ships of resources and supplies... Remember in season who really cares of Star Gate SG1 when Weir (She was in charge of the SGC for almost 3 episodes.) says Fuck it, if we're going to ally with Gou'ld, and fight beside Gou'ld, we want territory after it's finished, we want to be System Lords damn it.

How many times would the Kzon have to be defeated, before tufts of them started puttingout feelers about joing the Federation?

It's debateable how clothing works on a Starship, but by the end of season 2, the entire crew of Voyager Federation and Maquis alike are dressed in approximaitons of Starfleet uniforms using Kazon textiles.

But the sad shitty thing of it is, that despite the massive set up, the Kazon were not used as the dominate pirate scum controlling ALL nearby space holding a furious grudge against Voyager that wouldn't quit.

Ditto with the Ferengi in TNG.

All those peaceful explorer episodes in seaosn one, the old recycled TNG scripts were shite, it should have been year ofl Hell with the Kazon attacking every 10 minutes, hammering on Voyager who despite being so much more powerful is niether as blood thirsty or has the fleet and man power to deal with a game of cat and mouse as thousands of kazon City ships are baring down on them with wet lips and toothy smiles for what the Federations did in Caretaker.

But that's all obvious, right?

 

[Stoo]

I think the writers were more focused on the main story than having to fill in what should be minor details. They simply didn't believe people were going to be that anal over the number of torpedos.

My concern isn't so much specific details like shuttle count. Rather that themes of limited resources and difficulties in keeping the ship running, would have been a good source of story ideas and and helped the show feel more distinct from previous trek.

 

[MacLeod]

True Stoo, but for whatever reason(s) some of which have already been discussed, they decided to drop the limited resources and rather than trying to really establish is own identity because of limited resources it became TNG-lite. Take the bio-nueral gel packs for instance, perhaps they couldn't be replicated and over time because it was a relative new technology they began to fail and so they might have had system issues etc..

 

[Guy Gardener]

The only time they were actually used was when Neelix's cheese was killing them.

But then the only time we really got any hands on time with the Isolinear Chips was when the crew got drunk and started playing poker with them.

The Defiant was 150 years more advanced than Kirk's Enterprise, which meant that not only could they transport through the 1701's shields effortlessly, but they could probably shoot through them too because the Defiants computers could out think theh Enterprise and identify the Enterprises shields frequencies and compensate.

Surely someone must have been trying to hack the enemy ships in every battle Voyager must have been in during the shows run, and the tech in the DQ was supposed to be so backward, hundreds of years retarded in relation to the Federation, that Harry should have been able to turn off those city ships shields and start opening air locks until the Maje surrenders.

I know it's horrible programming, but that's what was happening last week in Intelligence, when Sawyer from Lost was using the Microchip in his brain to outthink every computer in Iran and make the entire country his bitch during a comando raid on some desert bunker where doors did what he told them to do, and the security cameras pointed where he told them to.

Of course if the Captain isn't firing phasers, as shields are failing, then it's not really Star Trek is it?

 

[exodus]

But then again fans esp. Sci-Fi fans are well known for picking up on these minor details. It's easier to get away with things when you don't say X can't do this. As soon as you've said X can't do this, you've placed a limit. Now of course limits can be broken or changed, audiances will accept it but they generally prefer an explanation. And as I or others have said all it would have taken is a line or two of dialouge in an episode. It wouldn't really have any impact to the casual viewer but perhaps added to it for fans.

They were already cutting minutes out of the show to make room for more commercials. They had to cut out the scene where Neelix and Kes actually break up. They cut out the line about the Borg Baby going with Mazoti & the Twins. They cut out lines every episode during on the fly rewrites while filming. Doesn't sound too me they were in a position to ADD lines, if they were already cutting out lines and scenes to begin with. I would think under the circumstances, adding a line(s) you ask for that aren't vital to the ep. its in, would also get cut out again due to time constraints.

My concern isn't so much specific details like shuttle count. Rather that themes of limited resources and difficulties in keeping the ship running, would have been a good source of story ideas and and helped the show feel more distinct from previous trek.

That may have been if Voyager wasn't on a what was at the time considered a major network. That changed EVERYTHING!
They used a darker approach on DS9. While it did well in syndication, the numbers DS9 pulled wasn't going to work for show on a major network like Voyager. They have a marketing research dept. that finds all this out for them.
Therefore they had to rethink the show and went back to what they felt was a more family friendly show(less darker tone) that would pull back in that audience they were loosing on DS9. While a few fans maybe disappointed, the fact that it allowed Voyager to run a full 7 years was considered a successful move on Paramount's POV and told them there was a larger audience beyond the fan base they were reaching.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

My concern isn't so much specific details like shuttle count. Rather that themes of limited resources and difficulties in keeping the ship running, would have been a good source of story ideas and and helped the show feel more distinct from previous trek.

That may have been if Voyager wasn't on a what was at the time considered a major network. That changed EVERYTHING!
They used a darker approach on DS9. While it did well in syndication, the numbers DS9 pulled wasn't going to work for show on a major network like Voyager. They have a marketing research dept. that finds all this out for them.
Therefore they had to rethink the show and went back to what they felt was a more family friendly show(less darker tone) that would pull back in that audience they were loosing on DS9. While a few fans maybe disappointed, the fact that it allowed Voyager to run a full 7 years was considered a successful move on Paramount's POV and told them there was a larger audience beyond the fan base they were reaching.

Actually, Voyager's ratings went down along the same curve that DS9's did [link]. Paramount probably wasn't too happy about those ever-dwindling ratings.

They already knew there was a larger audience to be had from the TNG days, which was probably why the powers in charge wanted to make both VOY (and later ENT) more like TNG. Unfortunately, what the powers in charge failed to appreciate was that that prospective larger audience wasn't interested in proverbial warmed-over servings from last week's Sunday dinner. And why should they be? The idea that they could keep going on automatic pilot without getting fundamentally creative was what doomed Prime Universe Trek on TV.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Any Trek ship, more like. DS9's Defiant wasn't designed with a shuttlebay at all, but they had to squeeze one in when the plot demanded it.

It was designed with a shuttlebay. In the ship's second episode both Kira and Odo as well as Sisko and Bashir used separate shuttles. The location of the hangar wasn't shown until "The Sound of Her Voice" though, and seems like a very sensible place to have it.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The location and shape of the recessed doors in "The Sound of Her Voice" clashes with the what was earlier shown (in "By Inferno's Light") to be a protruding tractor beam emitter. Yes the ship had shuttles in an earlier episode, but they never gave thought to where they came from until they had to show it. The bay we saw was only big enough to hold a single craft anyway!