Endgame was awesome!

[stj]

She's gotta fix it for Seven and Chatokay, but not for Carey and Hogan and Stadi?

How can you dislike an episode you didn't watch? The Admiral can only intervene to get the ship home at a point in the journey when there is a way back. Carey and Hogan weren't anywhere near such a place and could not be saved. Stadi was near the Array but there's no reason to think there was any way the Admiral could find a way home there. Preventing Voyager from going to the Badlands (never leaving) might not have worked to save just the Voyager crew, nor would it have saved Chakotay, Tuvok, Torres, Kes and Seven of Nine.

Bad enough Janeway does this--even after the ship and crew DID get home anyway--but VOY already did eps with the villain Annorax altering time and history for the sake of his personal outcome.

So Janeway does the SAME THING as a big heroic finish for the series?

NOT awesome.

The Admiral's plan was rejected. The Captain didn't change the past, she changed the future. If somehow you've convinced yourself people don't have the right to change their futures (,) the Captain did it to defeat the Borg, which is not a personal outcome. You shouldn't have taken so long making the popcorn, you missed that part.

 

[DonIago]

It doesn't matter -why- the Captain did it, the point is she placed the lives of her crew over the lives of everyone Voyager may have positively influenced in the prior timeline.

And the idea that the lives of the Voyager crew are more important than the lives of "fictional people we never heard of" is ludicrous.

It would serve them right if the Borg ended up conquering the AQ precisely because things Voyager had done to slow them down never transpired.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

but the STORY is still good.

Absolutely! It's a ripping yarn. Like all ripping yarns too much scrutiny reveals some gaps.

 

[Gov Kodos]

The Voyager crew is fictional, too. After seven years, I care more about them than fictional folks unseen and unknown. And wishing Borg assimilation on a quadrant over this, that's a sadly angry reaction, Don.

 

[MacLeod]

If you're asking for opinions, I can offer one.

Noted. Sorry, I haven't been on the bbs while the thread while this thread took on a life of its own. These are minor flaws (at least to me) R Star. Its like "All Good Things" with its problem of the anomaly-growing-backward-in-time error, but the STORY is still good. The plot is what I enjoy about endgame. I don't focus much on the details. I do have a few issues with the episode (for instance, if the borg posses a wormhole leading to 001, why hasn't earth been handily assimilated?) But I loved the plot. If you can't suspend your disbelief once in a while, it becomes impossible to enjoy Trek.

Shows esp. Sci-Fi shows to require a suspesnion of disbelief. We accept Warp Drives, Transporters etc.. as being needed to tell the story. However the producers have to be careful not to push that to far or they risk breaking that suspension.
Of course where that breaking point is might differ from person to person.

The plot is what many people dislike about "Endgame".

As has already been pointed out, they previoulsy refused an offer to prevent the ship from being launched on the misson in the first place because of the impact they had , had in the DQ. Flash forward a few years later and so what about the influence we might have had in the next 16 years just so we can save the lives of effectively three crew members Seven, Tuvok and Chakotay.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

Endgame wasn't the worst episode of the series, I think. It's just one that most fans tend to wish it had been done differently. I don't know too many fans who like it exactly the way it is. That said, if it weren't the last episode, I don't think anyone would have cared nearly as much.

 

[Vulcan Logician]

Speaking of scrutiny, how come Janeway is pegged as the non-resolute, wishy washy captain when every other episode Kirk WIPES HIS ASS with the prime directive? I think it's fun when a Captain breaks the rules. I like how they usually follow the rules because they are decent people with principles. But too much of this gets boring. If you want an awesome out-of-the-ordinary episode, the captain is going to have to do something out of the ordinary.

And just to put this out there, yes the Borg feebleness bothered me too, as well as a few other minute details.

 

[DonIago]

My issues with Janeway have little to do with her treatment of the Prime Directive.

In my experience bosses who break the rules are bosses you can't trust. Captains breaking the rules might make for good entertainment but the reality is that people who do that sort of thing habitually shouldn't be placed in positions of authority. Of course, a lot of it depends on -why- they're breaking the rules as well.

 

[Vulcan Logician]

^ A good boss generally adheres to the rules/principles which have placed him in his position. That's a given. But a good boss also knows when to break said rules. (This is possibly a mere reiteration of your statement). But entertainment is important too. I doubt most of us watch Trek purely for moral guidance. Though, undoubtedly, most of us have been affected by the high morals of the Federation and occasionally apply some of the Federation ethos to our own personal worldview.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She said that she could beat a court martial about even a prime directive violation in Counterpoint because all the Admirals that could be judges knew her, and loved her.

Above the fricking law.

 

[Vulcan Logician]

^Hence her promotion to Admiral. As is well known in Starfleet rank posterity, before one is promoted to Admiral he/she must pledge his/her willingness to cooperate with the dark side. Name one Starfleet Admiral who wasn't morally ambiguous.

 

[JarodRussell]

^Hence her promotion to Admiral. As is well known in Starfleet rank posterity, before one is promoted to Admiral he/she must pledge his/her willingness to cooperate with the dark side. Name one Starfleet Admiral who wasn't morally ambiguous.

Admiral Kirk!

 

[R. Star]

^Hence her promotion to Admiral. As is well known in Starfleet rank posterity, before one is promoted to Admiral he/she must pledge his/her willingness to cooperate with the dark side. Name one Starfleet Admiral who wasn't morally ambiguous.

Admiral Kirk!

Yep and he couldn't cut it and got demoted.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I think it's very nice of 7 to agree to sleep with Chakotay for charity.

I wanted to post this last week but I had to find it again. lol

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

So you wouldn't sponsor them at 1 dollar a go?

 

[MacLeod]

^Hence her promotion to Admiral. As is well known in Starfleet rank posterity, before one is promoted to Admiral he/she must pledge his/her willingness to cooperate with the dark side. Name one Starfleet Admiral who wasn't morally ambiguous.

Admiral Kirk!

Yep and he couldn't cut it and got demoted.

Or that Janeway was a meance to the space lines and was thus promted out of them. Whilst Kirk was a menace in both the space lines and at the Admiralty so they put him where they thought he could do the most good.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

So you wouldn't sponsor them at 1 dollar a go?

Pssh Hellz no. I'd save my money and attempt to court 7 myself

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

So you wouldn't sponsor them at 1 dollar a go?

Pssh Hellz no. I'd save my money and attempt to court 7 myself

Now that's sweet. Saving Chakotay from all that hard work.

 

[stj]

She said that she could beat a court martial about even a prime directive violation in Counterpoint because all the Admirals that could be judges knew her, and loved her.

Above the fricking law.

I believe this is what's called a "shout out" by the writers. They were aware of the Janeway haters who wanted her court-martialed, so they just anticipated. It seems to me that how they see things working in Hollywood, so they just assume everything is going to be like what they believe, forever, no matter how much other, supposedly superficial things like "technology" changes. There are many people who think "friend" is synonymous with "accomplice."

 

[Guy Gardener]

Caligula was slang for "little boots". When he was a little boy, his mother the empress would dress Caligula up as a Centurian in a tiny uniform and he'd march and drill for the troops to their complete thrill. An adorable boy apparently before he started raping horses.

Winning hearts and minds.

What we had here was an army of 10's of thousands of trained killers who would march into hell because Agrippina manipulated the shit out of them years before their loyalty to this "boy" was necessary.

The long game.

6 year old Kathryn Janeway probably had horsey rides from most of the her father's friends who would one day be the Admiralty by the time she was given Voyager.