Endgame & Relativity

[c0rnedfr0g]

Shouldn't the U.S.S Relativity negate the events of 'Endgame?' It seems that it was a pretty blatant violation of the Temporal Prime Directive, and the Relativity is supposedly keeping a close eye on Voyager (not that it needs to, since what happens in Voyager's real-time is always the past for the Relativity...), and is supposed to protect the timeline.

So I guess Voyager is still in the Delta/Beta Quadrant after all....

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Relativity crew could have arranged for the 'future tech' to be confiscated, while still keeping Voyager home in the AQ.

In the novels, I believe that after the ship returns home, Starfleet (of the 24th century) turns all of the future tech over to the Department of Temporal Investigations who will only let them use it again when it's "supposed" to be used.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

Still, Voyager should've made contact and influenced a number of more species and societies over the years.

 

[kimc]

Still, Voyager should've made contact and influenced a number of more species and societies over the years.

True which is one of the reasons why the "Endgame" plot doesn't withstand close scrutiny imo.

 

[exodus]

Adm. Janeway beat the Borg, why would that want to change that?



Davidant23, between the Kazon spreading lies about Voy.,the result of Janeway helping the Borg(Hope & Fear), Janeway giving better technology so the Hirogen could hunt better(Killing Game, Flesh & Blood), violating boarders(Raven, Swarm, Living Witness). Many cultures in the Delta Quaderant feared Voyager. Many didn't want to help them because they had a soiled reputation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Still, Voyager should've made contact and influenced a number of more species and societies over the years.

Should have? How do we know that? Why is the original timeline the one that 'should' have happened, just because it was the first?

The Federation of the 29th century may have - indeed, must have - decided that any cultures Voyager encountered in the original timeline would have been better off without them.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

The USS Relativity's job, if the PD still holds, is not to decide 'what's best' for a culture, but to maintain the timeline by preventing time travel.

 

[kipron]

The USS Relativity's job, if the PD still holds, is not to decide 'what's best' for a culture, but to maintain the timeline by preventing time travel.

All time travel? Ever? In that case, why didn't they go back and stop what Kirk did in TVH?

 

[Shintaek]

I'm wondering why the pre-Relativity episode Braxton did not take the Doctor's mobile emitter, when sending Voyager back to the DQ in the 24th century, since it was from the future, if time travel was used by 29th century Starfleet to fix any disturbances to normal space/time.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Since theres an infinite number of quantum realities, I've wondered what makes any one time line so special and in need of protection?

 

[propita]

Since theres an infinite number of quantum realities, I've wondered what makes any one time line so special and in need of protection?

The time line that leads to the Temporal Prime Directive, of course. Once you have the power, you want to make sure nobody can take it away from you by changing the past that led to your having the power.

So all the time traveling that led to the Relativity-universe was allowed to remain--Kirk's, Picard's, Sisko's, Janeway's--with that episode's exception, but even then, the [failed] intrusion by Braxton was actually required for the Relativity-universe to occur.

 

[Finn]

The USS Relativity's job, if the PD still holds, is not to decide 'what's best' for a culture, but to maintain the timeline by preventing time travel.

All time travel? Ever? In that case, why didn't they go back and stop what Kirk did in TVH?

If they did, they wouldn't even exist...

 

[kimc]

The USS Relativity's job, if the PD still holds, is not to decide 'what's best' for a culture, but to maintain the timeline by preventing time travel.

Exactly! It doesn't matter who did what when. If they altered time to do it then the timeline had to be corrected. Otherwise, the repercussions down the line could be dire. I believe "Year of Hell" proved that one out.

 

[exodus]

The USS Relativity's job, if the PD still holds, is not to decide 'what's best' for a culture, but to maintain the timeline by preventing time travel.

What about the EMH's Moblie Emitter?

Rain Robinson still remembers Tom, Tuvok & phasers.

Sisko as Gaberial Bell?

Clearly certain things that happen within time travel are allowed because they were never corrected.

 

[Tom]

The USS Relativity's job, if the PD still holds, is not to decide 'what's best' for a culture, but to maintain the timeline by preventing time travel.

What about the EMH's Moblie Emitter?

Rain Robinson still remembers Tom, Tuvok & phasers.

Sisko as Gaberial Bell?

Clearly certain things that happen within time travel are allowed because they were never corrected.

Well i dont see how Rain knowing what he did could effect anything, they would all think shes crazy LOL

BTW we could go on with 'First Contact' time changes also like:
- Cochranes compand getting almost distroyed
- People that died in the compound during the borg attack, do there decendants now just disappear from the timeline? What if were someone Picard knew, how do those events get altered.
- The sphere debris that lead to the enterprise episode "Regeneration"
- Hey, who were those 2 guys that flew with you Zephrane?? Where did they go. LOL

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

BTW we could go on with 'First Contact' time changes also like:
- Cochranes compand getting almost distroyed
- People that died in the compound during the borg attack, do there decendants now just disappear from the timeline? What if were someone Picard knew, how do those events get altered.
- The sphere debris that lead to the enterprise episode "Regeneration"
- Hey, who were those 2 guys that flew with you Zephrane?? Where did they go. LOL

Who says those were time changes? They could have been part of what was supposed to happen all along. Especially "Regeneration."

 

[ria 75]

Since theres an infinite number of quantum realities, I've wondered what makes any one time line so special and in need of protection?

Good point.

Besides, going back in time in order to always protect the Prime Directive in addition to the Temporal Prime Directive would be temporal fascism. Which would take time travel to prevent.
Anyway, the job of temporal agents is very subjective. Even they have problems figuring out what to do with time paradoxes. What if they are the busybodies? Once time travel exists, who can say what is right and what is wrong? Who can say what is supposed to happen, and what is best?
The line is crossed - or the die is cast - once the first temporal transgression is made. And attempts to fix it may not escape the principle of uncertainty.

Maybe it all boils down to predestination vs free will.
Whether you choose to modify a timeline or to preserve it, you're just trying to change things to what you think is right.
People change the world because they can, not because they are entitled to.

Those who believe in predestination or predetermination raise your hand.

I mean, anybody got aspirin?

 

[Timewalker]

Those who believe in predestination or predetermination raise your hand.

I mean, anybody got aspirin?

I don't believe in predestination or predetermination, but I do believe in the tendency of time to take the path of least resistance -- like rivers, which I think make an excellent metaphor for time. It takes extraordinary interference to make rivers run radically outside their course, and it would be the same with time -- which is why you get time agents creating the most bizarre paradoxes and other messes because they snoozed during their temporal geology classes.

The "infinite number of timelines" concept is the one that makes the most sense to me. The conditions that cause probability and resistance to work a certain way in one universe may not be the same in another. Hence, in one universe I would indeed have had some aspirin. In many other universes (like the one we're both in now) I would not have had any aspirin, because I'm allergic to it. My aspirin allergy is a physical part of me, not a consequence of any conscious choice I made, so it's the path of least resistance that I should normally be allergic to it and not have any when I read the quoted post.

So what would the path of least resistance been in "Endgame?" At first glance it would appear to be exactly what happened the first time around. Janeway happened on the transwarp hub full of Borg and got the hell out of there before they noticed Voyager. But Admiral Janeway, a consequence of that decision, decides to take extraordinary measures to change the flow of time's river. And the outcome?

That's a headache the producers and writers should never have inflicted on us without a scene of somebody in the Relativity sobbing in frustration and muttering, "There she goes again! That woman is more trouble than James T. Kirk -- at least HE never meddled in time for personal reasons!"

 

[ria 75]

I do believe in the tendency of time to take the path of least resistance -- like rivers, which I think make an excellent metaphor for time.

I would not have had any aspirin, because I'm allergic to it.

Same here on both accounts.
The mention of aspirin was a joke.
And a river is the way I picture a lifetime. When I dream of my roots, I see myself walking up a river. Otherwise, donwstream. A river does not reverse its course - except in its mouth when the tide goes up, indeed there is one thing stronger than a river - but in spirit one may go upstream... Aaaand this is going nowhere.

Now this is my favourite theory of timelines: in the multiverse, time branches out with each different decision, whether it's influenced by the future or not, (and with the different outcomes of random events?) thus forming different realities, the most numerous of which will have followed the path of least resistance. It's like the laws of probability.
So why bother to restore one timeline and make it like the other nine? Let's applaud the initiative which made that one different.

Anyway, until proven wrong, I think that in reality it may only be possible to travel to the future and not to the past... except if it's your return trip?? That might make sense logically but not scientifically.

Lastly, how can the job of temporal agents be to protect their timeline? The very nature of their job places them out of any given timeline. How can they watch different timelines if they are stuck in one? And if they are free from any particular timeline, how do they choose between them?
Moreover, if they can watch different timelines at the same time, doesn't that mean that they all exist in parallel? What makes one timeline the master timeline?
Just food for thought. I think I need more justification on how a temporal agency can exist.

 

[LtGodard]

All i Gotta Say is Janeway is the most abusive Captain when it come to the TPD and nothing would have stoped her