Those two years were the lousiest of the show.
Endgame & Relativity
- Thread starter c0rnedfr0g
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Those two years were the lousiest of the show.
The point was, it still ran two years without him. So it's still possable for a show to continue without the main character. Whether the show was still good or not is just a matter of opinion & perspective.
TNG, DS9 & Voy. all still did well for themselves without Yar, Jadzia & Kes.
Well in that perspective, all characters are replaceable.
But in my opinion, Jadzia's death was a great loss.
Not that you can compare losing one half of the main cast with losing one ninth or something.
I am late in this discussion.
When you effect a change in time it is not static. One change starts an avalance of changes that you cannot predict or control.
Re Time Travel.
Einstein said that you could possibly travel in to the past but not the Future although he doubted that Time Travel was possible and he had wonderful equations to prove it (which I coudln't understand.)
Time travel into the Future. The Future is just potential to us. it doens't yet exist so we cannot travel into it. HOwever a person from the distant future could travel in it as it would be his past. Paradox.
Traveling into the past would be trickey because of Material. We are all made up of material and it cannot be created or destroyed just altered. So the material in our bodies existed elsewhere inthe past. If we travel to the past the material would snap to it's position it had in the past. also, item of material cannot exist at the same time in the same place twice.
According to theiory it would cause one big explosion. Killing time traveller.
Lots of paradox in time travel.
simple example the Grandfather paradox.
Man goes back in time and kills his grandfather as a boy. Grandfather doesn't grow up doesn't meet and marry Grandmother, Father isn't born, doesn't meet and marry mother. Man is not born so he doesn't go back and kill his grandfather and the loop starts again. a loop that stops time in the man's particular section of time as time cannot get beyond that loop.
When you effect a change in time it is not static. One change starts an avalance of changes that you cannot predict or control.
Re Time Travel.
Einstein said that you could possibly travel in to the past but not the Future although he doubted that Time Travel was possible and he had wonderful equations to prove it (which I coudln't understand.)
Time travel into the Future. The Future is just potential to us. it doens't yet exist so we cannot travel into it. HOwever a person from the distant future could travel in it as it would be his past. Paradox.
Traveling into the past would be trickey because of Material. We are all made up of material and it cannot be created or destroyed just altered. So the material in our bodies existed elsewhere inthe past. If we travel to the past the material would snap to it's position it had in the past. also, item of material cannot exist at the same time in the same place twice.
According to theiory it would cause one big explosion. Killing time traveller.
Lots of paradox in time travel.
simple example the Grandfather paradox.
Man goes back in time and kills his grandfather as a boy. Grandfather doesn't grow up doesn't meet and marry Grandmother, Father isn't born, doesn't meet and marry mother. Man is not born so he doesn't go back and kill his grandfather and the loop starts again. a loop that stops time in the man's particular section of time as time cannot get beyond that loop.
^I thought that nearing light speed in space travel could technically make us travel into the future - travel faster than time, in a way.
The past feels a lot more tangible but in spite of that it might be unattainable - not like a post you can edit.
We travel into the future every second of our lives. It sounds more realistic.
But I would be happy to see science prove me wrong.
The past feels a lot more tangible but in spite of that it might be unattainable - not like a post you can edit.
We travel into the future every second of our lives. It sounds more realistic.
But I would be happy to see science prove me wrong.
Ria73. It is called the Space/Time continium. apparently space and time are intertwined in some way according to Einstein.
I don't pretend to understand any of it. Space/time or relativity.
I do know that one example presented was that time travels differently for a passenger on a ship going at 99.9 of light speed from an observer standing outside the ship.
What that means is beyond me.
It has also been postulated that one might travel to the Andromeda Galexy in a space ship where the time in the ship measured a few weeks but when traveller stepped outside the ship time snaped to its corerct position and the traveller ws two million years older.
Gives me a big headache so I try not to delve into it.
tjhat is why the technobabble on Star Trek is so nice. don't have to understand it, just accept it and suspend your disbelief.
I don't pretend to understand any of it. Space/time or relativity.
I do know that one example presented was that time travels differently for a passenger on a ship going at 99.9 of light speed from an observer standing outside the ship.
What that means is beyond me.
It has also been postulated that one might travel to the Andromeda Galexy in a space ship where the time in the ship measured a few weeks but when traveller stepped outside the ship time snaped to its corerct position and the traveller ws two million years older.
Gives me a big headache so I try not to delve into it.
tjhat is why the technobabble on Star Trek is so nice. don't have to understand it, just accept it and suspend your disbelief.
I don't question time being linked with space.
Ancient Pueblo Indians conceived great distance as the time needed to cover it. As if the distant place did not coexist in the present, but could only be construed in the future.
What Einstein says is that time is related to space through speed. If you near light speed, you're supposed to travel through time, a little, too. Less time has elapsed inside the the fast-moving ship than outside. So you travel into the future. But not into the past.
Although I understand that, I'm all about suspension of disbelief.
It's more fun to travel in time both ways and to travel in space without arriving later than it is inside, every time.
And technobabble sometimes makes more sense than people try to understand.
Don't lecture a lecturer!
Talking about things ``travelling faster than time'' is unnecessarily confusing and doesn't really help understand what relativity effects are.
It may be easier to look at it this way: the number of heartbeats felt by a person who stays still, here, at this space station will be larger than the number of heartbeats felt by a person who gets on a rocket, travels some distance at nine-tenths the speed of light as measured by the space station and then comes around back.
The person staying on the space station counts more heartbeats --- feels more time passing --- than the person on the spaceship does between their meetings. In that sense you might say the person on the spaceship `travelled into the future' because they observed less time between meetings than the person staying behind did. However, someone standing off to the side watching both space station and spaceship would see both of them, continuously, without either ever vanishing or appearing to be in two places at once or anything funny like that.
It doesn't take much to explain why the person moving --- and there's a huge footnote which belongs here, but don't worry about it --- feels fewer heartbeats, and it can be explained without any mathematics beyond knowing what a triangle looks like, and a desire to know it, so do be cautious about giving me a hint that you'd like to know. This explanation is all about special relativity, that is, stuff moving at constant speeds without gravity; general relativity takes a bit more setup but if you get why special relativity works you can get why general relativity does.
Time is a function of present moment interval in quantum mechanics, so it wouldn't matter what a time traveler did. His choices could split into new universes, just as if he was a person of that present, because he is a person of that present. What decisions or actions that cause paradoxes would probably close off event horizons and erase universal those timelines as if they never happened to his present-therefore making temporal intervention in those circumstances for him moot.
That, at least, is my story, and I'm sticking to it!
Isn't the standard model of physics wonderful? It takes care of any possibility of paradox through bifurcation and symmetry principles as well as the conservation of information!
Its just not law that I like.
That, at least, is my story, and I'm sticking to it!
Isn't the standard model of physics wonderful? It takes care of any possibility of paradox through bifurcation and symmetry principles as well as the conservation of information!
Its just not law that I like.
Time is a function of present moment interval in quantum mechanics, so it wouldn't matter what a time traveler did. His choices could split into new universes, just as if he was a person of that present, because he is a person of that present. What decisions or actions that cause paradoxes would probably close off event horizons and erase as universes those timelines as if they never happened to his present-therefore making temporal intervention in those circumstances for him moot.
That, at least, is my story, and I'm sticking to it!
Isn't the standard model of physics wonderful? It takes care of any possibility of paradox through bifurcation and symmetry principles as well as the conservation of information!
That, at least, is my story, and I'm sticking to it!
Isn't the standard model of physics wonderful? It takes care of any possibility of paradox through bifurcation and symmetry principles as well as the conservation of information!
All right. You are talking to an idiot who needs words broken down into one sylable words. You all sound like you know a lot about these things. I DON'T.
However, I will take your word for it.
As they say a little knowledge is dangerous and I have a little knowledge so I won't spout off anymore.
Since this SciFi I will stick with the techmobable at least I don't have to pretend that I understand that.
though what you have said is interwsting, pls continiue.
However, I will take your word for it.
As they say a little knowledge is dangerous and I have a little knowledge so I won't spout off anymore.
Since this SciFi I will stick with the techmobable at least I don't have to pretend that I understand that.
though what you have said is interwsting, pls continiue.
Sorry, teacher, I only did my homework between this post (#45) and my post #47.
*child's voice* Teacher, what happens when one of the men whose heartbeats we are counting gets a call from his girlfriend?
This whole post is addressed to me but I think I proved in post #47 that I was understanding enough of this. (General relativity) The point is just the time differencial resulting from speed (and no gravity, thanks, I didn't know that).
Lecture me for being a lecturer, but do I talk to people like they're 6 years old?
No, it's order. It's the word that genuinely comes to my mind to describe all that rigorous science. All these rules must make it more simple than it sounds to the layman.
P.S: all that time I thought the "Relativity" in the thread title was an episode title!
No, really, it's what it's about. It is perfectly appropriate and welcome to discuss relativity theory here, but the original 'Relativity' in the thread is a piece of fiction... about time travel, of course.Just in case I wasn't the only one forgetting how this thread began and whatever we posted at the time. We were throwing around a lot of ideas, picked up on the serious side by Bintak. Glad to see you back, by the way. Honestly.
________________________________________________________________Sorry, teacher, I only did my homework between this post (#45) and my post #47.
*child's voice* Teacher, what happens when one of the men whose heartbeats we are counting gets a call from his girlfriend?
This whole post is addressed to me but I think I proved in post #47 that I was understanding enough of this. (General relativity) The point is just the time differencial resulting from speed (and no gravity, thanks, I didn't know that).
Lecture me for being a lecturer, but do I talk to people like they're 6 years old?
No, it's order. It's the word that genuinely comes to my mind to describe all that rigorous science. All these rules must make it more simple than it sounds to the layman.
P.S: all that time I thought the "Relativity" in the thread title was an episode title!
Just in case I wasn't the only one forgetting how this thread began and whatever we posted at the time. We were throwing around a lot of ideas, picked up on the serious side by Bintak. Glad to see you back, by the way. Honestly.
To be specific about the physics, time travel, to go backwards, in entropy's arrow is only possible if you can isolate the packet of information you transmit and if you can find a sealed but permeable region of spacetime that does not conform to standard quantum mechanical rules. Of course you know where that leads you?
It leads you to hyper-dense conditions where the distinction between mass and energy totally disappears, and you find force unification is the norm to the external observer-i.e. just at the edge of the event horizon of a hypermass.
If you can enter and exit the boundary within a controlled vector you can wind up anywhen at the locus of the hypermass. The trouble is you cannot predict the when or the what that will emerge, as the information you send in is almost always scrambled as an edge effect when you intersect the boundary with your vector.
Otherwise relativity and QM applies to the time traveller locally as explained above.
That is not order I suggest, that could be a limit, which is why I generally refer to it as a law. Most "laws" in science I find seem to define the bounded limits as to what is possible and what is not in the chaos we observe around us.
My goodness... I have a headache after reading all that! 
I suddenly feel a whole lot smarter... or a whole lot dumber. Either way.
To sum it up, do you mean that in time travel to the past, provided it is achieved, it would be hard, or impossible, to pinpoint the target time, or that you would arrive there as Pizza The Hutt?
So it's really all laws you're interested in.
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It shocking but true that Janway gets killed and the entire story of Janway's death is actually in a TNG!
I love voyager so much but it would be heart breaking
I love voyager so much but it would be heart breaking
Note from kimc: Please use spoiler tags when revealing plots people may not know about. Even though the Pocket books aren't considered canon (thank goodness for that!) there are those who would be disappointed to know the storyline before they get a chance to read.
Thanks!
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Lets see I'm gonna give 3 examples of Janeways constant disregard of the TPD
1 In the Episode Eye of the Needle she send Information to the Romulans 28 years into the past .No matter how trivial any information transmitting anything after they had realized the tempural distortion.
2 Episode "timeless" It was Harry who originaly broke the TPD but after they had realized that it was future Kim , Capt. Janeway still gave Kim the Transmitted message.
Finaley my favorite Endgame 3 seperate time in that two hour episode did she break it
Future Janeway traveling back
Present Janeway accepting the shield and torpedo upgrageds
and simply useing the transwarp hub
Future Janeway asks her counterpart "what about your Precious Prime Directive" to the responce of "the hell with the Prime Directive' " . I think that pritty much defines Janeway as a captain. If the Enterprise was trapped in the DQ you would never have seen Picard make the same deccision.
1 In the Episode Eye of the Needle she send Information to the Romulans 28 years into the past .No matter how trivial any information transmitting anything after they had realized the tempural distortion.
2 Episode "timeless" It was Harry who originaly broke the TPD but after they had realized that it was future Kim , Capt. Janeway still gave Kim the Transmitted message.
Finaley my favorite Endgame 3 seperate time in that two hour episode did she break it
Future Janeway traveling back
Present Janeway accepting the shield and torpedo upgrageds
and simply useing the transwarp hub
Future Janeway asks her counterpart "what about your Precious Prime Directive" to the responce of "the hell with the Prime Directive' " . I think that pritty much defines Janeway as a captain. If the Enterprise was trapped in the DQ you would never have seen Picard make the same deccision.
They didn't learn about the temperal distortion until AFTER the Romulan captain was on Voyager. When that happened their only choices would have been to prevent him from going back to his own time or to rely in his promise to not reveal anything until the proper time. Since he indicated he would also not want to risk any harm coming to the Romulan empire by information getting out before it was supposed to it was a pretty safe gamble to let him return. The information they sent him was simply letters to loved ones that again would not have been released before the proper time.
I believe you're confusing the "prime directive" with the "temporal time directive" which doesn't go into effect until sometime in Starfleet's future when time travel is more possible.
The prime directive that Kirk, Picard and Janeway had to adhere to was that pre-warp civilizations were not to know about space travel or aliens. This was in order to protect them from outside influence so they could develop naturally. There's a TOS episode that covers the finer points in greater detail.
Again, the temporal prime directive was from Ransom's time - not Janeway's. As for giving Harry the message, the time the older Harry came from would now never exist.
This is one of the reasons besides too much borg and that icky C/7 mess that I don't like "Endgame". What older Janeway did was reprehensible. I'm not sure the younger one had too many choices once the older one showed up.
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