Oh yes - that was pretty good scene as well.
Endgame as it was first intended...
- Thread starter Praetorian
- Start date
Oh yes - that was pretty good scene as well.
See, I take Janeway's speech in "DF" as a metaphor.
Agreed - although the scene in 'Scorpion, 1' where the fleet of cubes appears beyond Voyager and flies past was a pretty good one for me too.
Undeniably a code brown.
It was so good.
Then it all turned to shite.
I liked that speech form the beginning of Dark Frontier when Janeway talks about all the times they saw the Borg and ran away or hid. Now that would have made for some interesting story telling.
But she automakes bitches of the most insidious (and only?) beasties to ever stymie Jean Luc Picard.
Agreed. What was up with that speech in 'DF' anyway? When they hell did they ever hide from the Borg?
"We'll see you soon, Harry..."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
The will to be free is stronger than any will of any slave master.
Too me that was the message behind the entire Voyager vs. Borg stories. It's no different that G'Kar standing up and defying Londo on B5, no matter how many times Londo tried to destroy his world or enslave his people. G'kar wouldn't give Londo the satisfaction of knowing he was afraid or unsure. He stood nose to nose to those that would oppress him. That was Janeway's attitude toward the Borg, that's why she had no fear of assimilation and psyched them out at every turn. It's human nature to defy oppression, even if you die in the process. Death is better than being a slave.
At the point she was assimilated near the beginning of the book, her"first death" ...Kathryn's thinking on the matter was "how could I have been so wrong? This is wonderful."
One day I'll get to the end of the book, but it's just full of so much bullshit about everyone wanting to bionk Seven, when all I wanted to see was Janeway get what she deserved for murdering Tuvix.
One day I'll get to the end of the book, but it's just full of so much bullshit about everyone wanting to bionk Seven, when all I wanted to see was Janeway get what she deserved for murdering Tuvix.
Didn't Janeway make Slave Labour of the Equnox 5? Maybe you could argue that they were prison labour? but even then, what are the consequences of refusing to work if you are a prisoner?
How is breaking your oath to the miltary and being punished for it equal to slave labor?
Too answer your second question: solitary.
Great one, Tachyon.
I'm talking about that.
Creating a new virtual rank of subcrewmen, since the actual "crewmen" (who didn't need oversight and didn't have their liberties stripped.) would be pretty pissed if Janeway on High thought their "occupation and contribution to the mission" was a neat and adequate punishment for massmurder.
There must be rules for how a prisoner is imprisoned which is the entire gitmo issue at hand at the moment...
Janeway agreed to murder them here. Attempted murder is a crime, hell it's conspiracy, she's a mercenary killer like Bobba Fett but then obeying the laws of the locals is a Prime Directive issue. She might have been lying? But this "loss of freedom" that Tuvok is talking about is one thing if you consent to being imprisoned in the middle of a giant space empire policed by millions and millions of Starfleet officers, but such "consent" is entirely different when it's 5 vs.140, a couple children and a hedgehog. If they felt put out after a hard day of being pushed around by maquis Terrorists... How many toilets were these people going to clean before they just said "fuck it" and jumped ship? And then if Janeway wouldn't expend the entire resources of the ship to retrieve them what sort of "punishment" were they undergoing that it's only worthwhile if it's a convenient principle for Janeway to abide by only so long as they are in eyeshot, which staggers the question on why she bothered to catch them in the first place? So if she drags them back, and then forever after had to use at least 10 (valuable) crew (who could be doing important things.) to make sure the Equinox 5 are confined or commit to some duties that will not result in the ship being turned over to their control, because the Equinox 5 are just going to jump ship again, if they don't foster a mutiny or begin murdering their guards that the only recourse is to put them in stasis until they get home, at which point it is the crew who actually do clean the toilets and stomach all the bullshitt hat comes from living on this tin can 70 years from home, and others who are not enjoying themselves who also ask if they too can be put in stasis since it doesn't seem like much punishment at all to blink and suddenly be home? But Janeway says no, because the ship needs to be crewed, so the only way to get into stasis is to become a criminal and then be too difficult to imprison... Which is when Janeway starts creating new Federation Penal colonies as she maroons crew and prisoners that will not cooperate, which will lead to an uprising and mutiny (Or mass desertion some where where they can make a real go of it.) and in turn it is Janeway who is confined to quarters and too those else who stay loyal to her but...
This all ends with Voyager blowing up because if Kathy can't have Voyager, no one can.
This girl is freakishly insane,
The Equinox 5 are Janeways slaves. Shouldn't they find death preferable? And if Janeway believes that ,murdering Borg Drones is rescuing them from slavery, then shouldn't she just kill the Equinox 5 herself to rescue them from slavery too?
Sorry Guy, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't understand how you're associating disobedience and punishment of organized military to slavery.
Borg drones are people taken against their will, Starfleet officers join knowing the price for treason and willingly accept it. Nobody is Janeway's slave, every officer has the right to resign their commission.
I don't understand how you're associating disobedience and punishment of organized military to slavery.
Borg drones are people taken against their will, Starfleet officers join knowing the price for treason and willingly accept it. Nobody is Janeway's slave, every officer has the right to resign their commission.
That's a very good take on that. I wish there had been more exploration of that idea...
As for the Equinox crew - I always took the 'stripped of rank, serve as crewman' to mean they were stripped of their commission and were busted back down to NCO rank crewman as punishment for what they did. She very well could have locked them in the brig for the duration, but clearly, as 'Equinox' was supposed to be about redemption (for everyone - including Captain Kathy Ahab) I suppose she thought there was hope for them.
I actually didn't mind Kathy's willingness to sacrifice the Equinox and its remaining crew to save Voyager.
Except the Equinox 5.
Do you think they can resign or leave?
They only have to accept (make it easy for the people imprisoning them.) imprisonment if they feel like it, and it seems that getting home is worth being everyones little bitch with the coffee fetching and shoe polishing for the next 40 years.
This is not the life they worked for, and this is not rehabilitation or atonement for ther crimes. this is janeway being vengeful and vindictive about peoople defying her vision of Starfleet (Sisko was the same when he met the Maquis.).
Tom disobeyed janeway and got thirty days in the brig and demoted... What would happen to these peole if they got into a dissagreement with the command staff? Can you imagine Kim putting one of thses people into Solitary?
Slavery and Imprisonment are both about the loss of freedom and meted dramatic punishment for any attempt to change this condition. Besides it's even arguable that these people were prisoners?
Did you see a courtmartial?
They were not being punished by the law, they were being punished by Janeways discretion, as if she was the law. Which I suppose saves time.
Rather than a hearing, Janeway just chewed them out in the mess like they were naughty in need a of a little humiliation to know their place. decreed that they were untouchables until she said otherwise. The difference between a slave and a prisoner is duration. A prisoner is a prisoner for a set duration. A Slave is a slave (forseeably) forever. They were "told" arbitrarily that they were everybodys dogsbody until Janeway felt like it, or possibly forever.
Forever is a long time.
You know - this is an interesting point.
Chakotay once mentioned that the crew needed to start having babies if they really expected to get home - implying that they needed every crew member they had. Would Janeway really let anyone 'resign' without still having aboard-ship duties? Even if they resigned their officer's commission, would they still be shoved back in a uniform, addressed as 'Crewman' and given duties? Leaving is one thing, but would they have really let someone say 'I give up' and be a passenger?
Somehow, I think not.
Chakotay once mentioned that the crew needed to start having babies if they really expected to get home - implying that they needed every crew member they had. Would Janeway really let anyone 'resign' without still having aboard-ship duties? Even if they resigned their officer's commission, would they still be shoved back in a uniform, addressed as 'Crewman' and given duties? Leaving is one thing, but would they have really let someone say 'I give up' and be a passenger?
Somehow, I think not.
Seven was a passenger technically. Kes too. Neelix more than pulled his own weight.
Suder Begged to contribute to the mission, but Janeway decided he should rot in his quarters.
Tom had a month off.
The Borg children almost left straight away and Icheb seemed to get straight to work, so the only honest to god Passenger was Naomi.
How long though until she'd assigned duties?
Suder Begged to contribute to the mission, but Janeway decided he should rot in his quarters.
Tom had a month off.
The Borg children almost left straight away and Icheb seemed to get straight to work, so the only honest to god Passenger was Naomi.
How long though until she'd assigned duties?
She already was, although they were probably pretty light - she was the captain's "girl Friday". Essentially, a yeoman. What I wonder is how long it would have been before she was issued an actual uniform. And how long before she outranked Harry.
I don't see them letting anyone not pull their weight unless they felt they absolutely couldn't avoid it - as with Suder. But I also don't see them letting anyone leave under uncontrolled circumstances - the damage even a few humans running amok in the DQ could do to future relations between DQ civilizations and the Federation would have to be a serious and legitimate concern.
So yes, once they were in the DQ, Janeway became Captain in a much more classical sense - the crew's mistress after God, so to speak.
I assumed the role of Captains assistant was honorary.
She only looked 10 when the show finished but she was really5, no matter how quickly her lot mature if their dna has a splosh of humanity involved.
Janeway let the entire crew decide if they wanted to go in The 37s, and Chakotay who didn't know that they were pulling his dick didn't think anything was amiss that Tom was allowed to go...
I was always curious why they didnt go get Seska?
Not that they had jurisdiction over her and for the most part when they were in kazon controlled space which was following janeway, it was Seska who was the government insisting that Janeway was the criminal who must submit... but the ease with which those Ferengi used the Prime Directive to transform their capture and lengthy journey home into a brief visit.
Those ferengi.
Hmmm?
That would have been the litmus test since they wouldn't bunch an inch without renumeration.
She only looked 10 when the show finished but she was really5, no matter how quickly her lot mature if their dna has a splosh of humanity involved.
Janeway let the entire crew decide if they wanted to go in The 37s, and Chakotay who didn't know that they were pulling his dick didn't think anything was amiss that Tom was allowed to go...
I was always curious why they didnt go get Seska?
Not that they had jurisdiction over her and for the most part when they were in kazon controlled space which was following janeway, it was Seska who was the government insisting that Janeway was the criminal who must submit... but the ease with which those Ferengi used the Prime Directive to transform their capture and lengthy journey home into a brief visit.
Those ferengi.
Hmmm?
That would have been the litmus test since they wouldn't bunch an inch without renumeration.
Speaking of the "Equinox Five", where did they go? They might have made interesting recurring characters, but instead they just disappeared. Hmmm.
Equinox is one of my most hated Voyager episodes, because it sums up the complete lack of balls the show had. It's got some incredibly dark stuff - Sisko duping the Romulans, or irradiating a couple of Maquis planets is nothing compared with Ransom's mass murder - and Janeway acts like Dick Cheney on crack for most of Part II.
What does it amount to? A party on the holodeck - Chakotay's bringing the salad, Janeway's got the croutons. It's utterly guttless after what they've been through.
Equinox is one of my most hated Voyager episodes, because it sums up the complete lack of balls the show had. It's got some incredibly dark stuff - Sisko duping the Romulans, or irradiating a couple of Maquis planets is nothing compared with Ransom's mass murder - and Janeway acts like Dick Cheney on crack for most of Part II.
What does it amount to? A party on the holodeck - Chakotay's bringing the salad, Janeway's got the croutons. It's utterly guttless after what they've been through.
"Good Shepherd"
In that ep. Janeway & Chakotay discuss the idea of allowing crewmen that couldn't cut it, to resign their commission to persue other endeavours. Janeway was open to the idea but wanted to give the crewmen one more shot before making her final decision.
If you had a courtmartial, the Judge would still be Janeway anyway. What other way but by the captain can you discipline a crew who is lost outside the jurisdiction laws of their own space? Besides, those crewman know the laws & rules and broke them any way. So if Janeway is criminal in her punishment, they're criminals too for breaking the laws in the first place. They after all they were the catalyst in this whole thing.
Tomalak: Isn't there a line at the end of "Equinox pt2" where Janeway says she's assigning them to the lower decks? My best guess is waste extraction & cleaning out the warp plasma. Two of the worst jobs it seems onboard starships.
Is warp plasma residue a bio-hazard?
I never understood what Janeway expected the crew of the Equinox to do, mutiny against Ransom? Overthrow him? Is the crew responsible for the decisions of an insane Captain? If there had been a janitor onboard the Equinox would he have been blamed too?
I wonder if they hanged Hitler's barber?
I wonder if they hanged Hitler's barber?
I'm assuming they're were supposed to turn the First Officer.
The First Officer is supposed to be the voice & represent the concerns of the crew to the captain. They also had the oppertunity to tell the truth upon coming onboard Voyager the first time. Whenever they got jumpy or asked what any problem was, they never told the truth. If one Equinox crewman came forth and told Janeway or Chakotay what was going on even in private, it would have secured the rest of the crew from taking the fall.
[quote[FONT=Arial]]CHAKOTAY: What can we do? There are always a few who don't make it past their first year on a Starship. Normally, they're reassigned, but in our case maybe we should relieve them of duty and let them pursue their own interests. It certainly wouldn't hurt general efficiency. [/quote][/FONT]
That was a stupid thing to say and Janeway dismissed it instantly. One lucky torpedo volley from a wandering Hirogen hunter and they're down 20 crewmen, which is not the time to be playing catch up with crew who have been allowed to skive for the last year...
Although, if I had thought that some true deviousness was in Chuckles heart that he was trying con Janeway, I might think that if he was still be invested in promoting the Maquis still stuck in the trenches, which he most certainly was, still doing dogs work because all the prime posts are continuously being monopolized by real Starfleet Officers.
They dispensed with formality, you recall Janeway being unamused by Ransoms crew calling him by his christian name? The XO was a Deush, but Marla built a furnace that hungered for bodies this crew intended to murder by quota and lot. That's not cool. Meanwhile everyone else opened fire on Voyager which isn't too dissimilar to the Doctor helping those rebel Holograms or Chuckles getting sucked into Annorax's slippery web of seduction.
The numbers just didn't pan out.
Equinox started at 68 crew, which got cut in half in thier first week, and it seemed that by the time that they met Voyager that there were about 20 of them still breathign. Sacrificing 150 people to save 20 is conceivable, but the Equinox's manifest kept dripping till there was what 8 of them in total and they were still trying to kill 150 humans to get home? They're morons.
I liked it on BSG how when Pegasus showed up that it was bigger stronger and just as much crew as Galactica, and and that Michelle Fornes outranked Edward james Olmoss... Might only needs to equal right if you can't find the moral high ground.
The Captains discretion is not the same as a trial. No matter what punishment Janeway dreams up for these people, and the Maquis too who as of seaosn 6 were still seen as villains back home, still all have to have a trial to be judged over for their crimes. If Janeay doesn't try them, then they're all going to be treated like shit for 40 years and then they also get their day in court where upon they get a fresh sentencing which might chose to not take into account the thirty years of bullying Janeway inflicted on these mass murderers just to get them home.
And there's no certainty that Janeway would be the Judge on Voyager, just because she's the highest ranking officer because lets face it, she doesn't have a background in law at all... Harry does.
Purely on the grounds that she tortured Lessing, she could be recused from sitting as Judge in such a case, though the irony would have been excellent if she had been drafted as a defense lawyer for the Equinox 5 since from my recollection of TNG Messure of the Man, the JAG is Office can do that and whosoever is made judge for this case, which would either be Chakotay, Bartlet, Tuvok, a Hologram (Neelix, y'know... Captain Neelix? His ship is in the hold.) or again Kim who is almost a command level officer despite being just a lowly ensign.Individual they had different degrees of culpability and some of them might even have be judged innocent, which is why Janeways blanket persecution on these people just again proves that she is a basket case.
Last edited:
As I said, all that goes out the window outside of thier space where their laws have jurisdiction. Who is going to enforce laws on a ship on the otherside of the galaxy and unable to contact any proper authorities from Federation controlled space? If the Captain can't, who then?
Also if Hirogen hunters take out 20 crewmen in battle, what's difference in allowing a few crewman to resign? The end result will still be the same.
Also if Hirogen hunters take out 20 crewmen in battle, what's difference in allowing a few crewman to resign? The end result will still be the same.
