Empire Strikes Back; something, something, something...

[The Squire of Gothos]

...bothers me.

First (and not inspired by the Family Guy special) why was it terrible to have the Imperial fleet come out of hyperspace so close to Hoth. Come out of it far away, the Rebels can see a fleet assembling and have more time to get off world, with large gaps between the Imperial ships. Drop on top of them, you get them before they can muster an adequate defence and all your ships are together in a tighter net.

Second, what's up with the nook full of dark side flavour force on Dagobah? Ok, I get it, Luke finds in there what he takes with him, fear and loathing. Darth Vader turns out to be him. So either some foreshadowing of his paternity, or a warning not to be overwhelmed by fear and turn to the dark side. Even so, it does break up the film a little, doesn't it? (Not a question so much as a "do you feel that way about it too?")

And third, for laughs, why does Lando wear Han's clothes at the end of the film? Yes he's left his wardrobe on Cloud City, but isn't it getting a little too comfortable? Han isn't dead, he just needs rescuing. Buuuuut, shame to waste these clothes incase he really is dead. And hey, he's left some smokes, malt whiskey, Chewbacca, pull up a chair and lets have some men talk!

 

[Lindley]

...bothers me.

First (and not inspired by the Family Guy special) why was it terrible to have the Imperial fleet come out of hyperspace so close to Hoth. Come out of it far away, the Rebels can see a fleet assembling and have more time to get off world, with large gaps between the Imperial ships. Drop on top of them, you get them before they can muster an adequate defence and all your ships are together in a tighter net.

Presumably, a hyper footprint is far more readily detectable at close range. Come in far enough out and then sneak in at sublight under emissions control, and they could have potentially gotten into bombardment range before the Rebels beefed up their shield.

Second, what's up with the nook full of dark side flavour force on Dagobah? Ok, I get it, Luke finds in there what he takes with him, fear and loathing. Darth Vader turns out to be him. So either some foreshadowing of his paternity, or a warning not to be overwhelmed by fear and turn to the dark side. Even so, it does break up the film a little, doesn't it? (Not a question so much as a "do you feel that way about it too?")

Yoda used the Dark Side energy of that cave to mask his own presence from the Emperor. There's also speculation that it's the lingering energy of a Dark Jedi who had been defeated on that spot some time before.

 

[David cgc]

First (and not inspired by the Family Guy special) why was it terrible to have the Imperial fleet come out of hyperspace so close to Hoth. Come out of it far away, the Rebels can see a fleet assembling and have more time to get off world, with large gaps between the Imperial ships. Drop on top of them, you get them before they can muster an adequate defence and all your ships are together in a tighter net.

IIRC, the Rebels kept talking about how all the asteroids near the planet would make it hard to see an approaching ship. I think Vader's plan was to arrive too far out to be spotted, and then just coast in as if the fleet were just another swarm of asteroids, and then catch the Rebels unaware when the "asteroids" started firing at their base. As it was, they just popped into normal space close enough for the Rebels to see that they popped in out of nowhere and were obviously ships and not more asteroids drifting into sensor range.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

I thought they might have crept in too. But if discovered, the Imperials don't seem to have much in the way of speed between crawl and hyperspace. They'd have to hop out, then form up and hop back in.

 

[Kegg]

Second, what's up with the nook full of dark side flavour force on Dagobah? Ok, I get it, Luke finds in there what he takes with him, fear and loathing. Darth Vader turns out to be him. So either some foreshadowing of his paternity, or a warning not to be overwhelmed by fear and turn to the dark side. Even so, it does break up the film a little, doesn't it? (Not a question so much as a "do you feel that way about it too?")

Yoda used the Dark Side energy of that cave to mask his own presence from the Emperor. There's also speculation that it's the lingering energy of a Dark Jedi who had been defeated on that spot some time before.

That's the canon rationale, actually (a Bpfassh something something. No, that's not a typo, it's actually spelt like that.)

Having recently rewatched ESB I must say I really like that moment, and that's not for the rather forced handwaving it gets in the extended universe. Thematically it underpins the whole movie at that point - the endless references to the corruption faced by Obi-Wan's apprentice, and also that Luke has much anger in him like his father, and his failure to heed Yoda's response, etc. ... at the end of the movie Vader really is holding up a mirror to him. He's not just his father, he's his future self.

Hence the whole Luke in the Vader costume thing.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Second, what's up with the nook full of dark side flavour force on Dagobah?

Well now that you mention it, I may as well vent.

There really should have been a scene in the PT (assuming they were worth half a gobule of spit, so this is purely theoretical) that explains why the "nook" was so damn significant. I mean, ok, it wasn't significant. But it should have been. Anakin should have been inexorably led to it as his metaphorical (or even literal) birthplace and stumbled across Preternatural Signs of Foreboding there. The Vader body armor arrayed on a sarcophogus (still containing the bones of its previous occupant?), hieroglyphics that refer to the dim, arcane and terrible origin of the Sith Lords, a Starbucks franchise, something!!!!

at the end of the movie Vader really is holding up a mirror to him. He's not just his father, he's his future self.

Exactly, it's a pivotal moment in the story. Which is why it should not have been forgotten in the PT - it needed to be a pivotal moment in that story, too.

 

[The Fatman]

^^ I'm with you 100% Temis. That is just another one of the many failings int he PT.

However, my gripe with TESB actually has always been timeline.... just how the hell long was Luke on Dagobah, and the Falcon en route to Bespin? It has to be months for the story to make any sense (they're at sublight, and Luke learns everything Yoda can teach him?).

 

[SeerSGB]

^^ I'm with you 100% Temis. That is just another one of the many failings int he PT.

However, my gripe with TESB actually has always been timeline.... just how the hell long was Luke on Dagobah, and the Falcon en route to Bespin? It has to be months for the story to make any sense (they're at sublight, and Luke learns everything Yoda can teach him?).

I typically assume a month to two months for the Falcon trip; maybe less if they get the hyperdrive working long enough for short bursts.

As for Luke: I figure Yoda was more interested in getting him to a place where he could take on Vader or the Emperor, so he gave Luke the "cliff notes" version of training. One theory I heard off and on was that Luke wasn't meant to be a Jedi so much as a weapon, a instrument of the will of the Force; meaning he didn't get the classic training, but a more combat focused course.

 

[Nowhere Man]

I always figured Luke got a short training, learning the ways of the force, then after ESB he did some more. By the time of ROTJ he's now a full Jedi, then of course post Jedi he becomes a master.

 

[Nardpuncher]

^^ I'm with you 100% Temis. That is just another one of the many failings int he PT.

However, my gripe with TESB actually has always been timeline.... just how the hell long was Luke on Dagobah, and the Falcon en route to Bespin? It has to be months for the story to make any sense (they're at sublight, and Luke learns everything Yoda can teach him?).

I agree.
I always found it odd that Vader will bring all those bounty hunters to his ship, then one of his officers comes up and tells him they've found the Falcon.
Vader: Oh well, you guys get lost now.Bye

That would only make sense if they'd been searching for days or weeks and called in the bounty hunters as a last resort/back-up.

 

[Lindley]

I always figured Luke got a short training, learning the ways of the force, then after ESB he did some more. By the time of ROTJ he's now a full Jedi, then of course post Jedi he becomes a master.

Luke's battle with Vader was his final step to becoming a Jedi Knight, per Yoda.

He didn't ascend to Jedi Master until around 7 years later. I don't recall the exact reasoning, but I think the upgrade came because Leia and others in the fledgling Jedi community figured he deserved it.

 

[Super55]

Generally a more science fictiony or scientific explanation might not be the first that you'd think of for a problem in Star Wars, given that its more Science Fantasy or Space Opera then Science Fiction, but might relativity offer an explanation for the whole Luke's training time problem? According to relativity, the faster an object or a spaceship approaches the speed of light, the more time seems to slow down for the object, however time outside the object appears to pass normally. Luke's training seems to take months, while Han, Leia and Chewie's journey to Baspin seems to take somewhat less time. I assume that their are no relativity effects during hyperspace, however without its Hyper Drive the Falcon is forced to travel on its sublight engines to another solar system to get to Baspin. If it travels near the speed of light, which it would have to do for its journey to not take hundreds or thousands of years, then the effects of relativity become noticeable after some time. It could seem like weeks or days for Han, Leia and Chewie but months or years for everyone else. Its really hard to say because we don't know how long they traveled, how far Baspin is from Hoth, or what speed the Millennium Falcon was traveling at.

 

[Kegg]

Yoda didn't teach Luke everything. He buggered off in the middle of his training, wasn't that the point?

But yes, the timeline of ESB is more than a trifle elastic. It's a consequence of having two seperate storylines which are moving at different paces but need to progress equally during the film - the narrative drive of the first movie was obviously a tad more direct in that respect.

As far as the sublight goes... um... I'm assuming Bespin is in the same system because otherwise I can't see them reaching it as quickly as they did; or if you prefer hyperspace is just the really-really-fast FTL, or if you prefer; the Mystery Science Theatre excuse. I like the last the best, it's Star Wars, the science and logic aren't always that airtight.

But it should have been. Anakin should have been inexorably led to it as his metaphorical (or even literal) birthplace

One of Luke's very first lines upon arriving at Dagobah is 'this place feels familiar somehow.' Which I'd always thought meant that Luke was connected to that planet. He was born there, maybe, before being ferried off to Tattooine. And Yoda seemed to blend into it like it was his element, maybe he had something do with the place.

But nope, there really is nothing to Dagobah at all. Enough with Tattooine, this is the planet form the OT I wanted some time spent on. Hell I still think Yoda looks more at home in those swamps and his little hermit hut then floating around Coruscant, but that may be the nostalgia talking.

 

[The Fatman]

Yoda didn't teach Luke everything. He buggered off in the middle of his training, wasn't that the point?

I am assuming "everything Yoda could teach him" based on the exchange in ROTJ

Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

 

[Kegg]

I am assuming "everything Yoda could teach him" based on the exchange in ROTJ

Which would make it more of a ROTJ problem (and boy ROTJ has a couple of those I'm afraid.)

I usually took that line to mean that Luke's final test ultimately was learning from the mistake he made at the end of the previous film (and dealing with the consequence of the secret kept from him) but that might just be making excuses for it.

 

[Hermiod]

Taking the prequel trilogy in to account, in my view Luke was trained enough to allow Vader to complete his destiny - to bring balance to the force. There was never any intention to give him the full years of training a normal Jedi would have.

We can ignore the fight in Empire because Luke was impetuous and ran off to face Vader before he was ready.

Actually, there's another similar incident - your character in KoTOR is trained to become a Jedi in a similarly short period of time.

 

[David cgc]

There's a good reason the character in that game picks up on everything so quickly, though, which really doesn't apply to Luke, unless I'm very confused about what the cave scene meant.

 

[Lindley]

Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

The key words in that exchange are "need" and "require". Yoda thinks Luke's training at that point is adequate, certainly, and it better be because he's dying anyway. But that doesn't imply Luke's training was as complete as possible, or even as complete as Yoda would have preferred.

 

[Hermiod]

There's a good reason the character in that game picks up on everything so quickly, though, which really doesn't apply to Luke, unless I'm very confused about what the cave scene meant.

Yes, Luke is Darth Revan.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There's a good reason the character in that game picks up on everything so quickly, though, which really doesn't apply to Luke, unless I'm very confused about what the cave scene meant.

Yes, Luke is Darth Revan.

Wouldn't Revan have been dead for around 4,000 years at this point?