Ellen Ripley needs one more story

[Switch]

1) No she doesn't.

Agreed. I just ignore Alien Resurrection.

2) She actually needed one less story - there are three female archetypes and the first three films covered them.

Can you expand on this?

Both of the variants linked to from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_goddess

Though Ripley fits the second one best.

Basically there's Maiden, Mother, and Crone.

In Alien she's the Maiden - her fame starts here, her usefulness starts here, and she's in at the birth of the creature, and is the only one who survives it. (Also she's a girl in a rape movie, if you want to look at it that way.)

In Aliens, we learn she was an actual mother, and she becomes surrogate mother to Newt, against the Queen who is the Aliens' mother. (Ripley's also the villain in this one- basically she's the wicked stepmother if you actually think about it for a minute)

In Alien 3 she's worn out, a herald of death, and embraces death to end the Alien, the film and the series.

Interesting stuff, thanks!

 

[Silvercrest]

So... Ripley-8 was a Crone Clone?

 

[Deckerd]

Terry Pratchett uses that trio in his Discworld witch stories. I think the crone was a hag though, although this was totally confused in the Tiffany Aching series because the pixies called her their Big Wee Hag as a definition of witch, although at 12 she was defnitely a maiden.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So... Ripley-8 was a Crone Clone?

She was the only one who survived, so she's a Lone Crone Clone.

Also, I believe she was an expert pilot - helped get the ship to Earth at the end of Resurrection - so she's a Flown Lone Crone Clone.

 

[Reverend]

I doubt anyone will be dumb enough to let to happen a second time.

Have you actually watched any of the Alien movies? They've done it. They keep doing it. Anytime Ripley's name pops up or there is some sign of the Xenomorphs, somebody goes and tries to collect samples, tries to bring them back home. "Crew expendable." The people in charge of these projects don't care about the humans involved. They want the weapon, and they will try as many times as it takes to get what they want.

I meant on a large scale where more than a handful of people know about it.

Let's take a look at the sequence of event for a second: *deep breath* In the first film, besides the handful of suits that issued those orders, all anyone outside the Nostromo knew is that a commercial towing vehicle inexplicably dropped off the grid and never made it home. The only ones that would even care would be the family of the crew and like an old ship lost at sea they would probably have just been told it was most likely a malfunction or some natural disaster. When Ripley turned up decades later, nobody in the company from back then was probably still alive evenand I doubt they left a post-it note for their successors saying "P.S. We sent a bunch of space truckers to an alien derelict and probably got them all killed."

The only one who even half believed her story was Burke who took it upon himself to send a prospecting team out to a grid reference. Now admittedly at this point somebody higher up clearly took notice as the colony suddenly went dark and authorised the deployment of a starship with a dozen marines. Remember that if anyone other than Burke believed in Ripley's xenomorph story, all they knew is that a bunch of untrained and unarmed commercial pilots and engineers stumbled onto something nasty and it got all but one killed. So if the same thing had happened to a remote colony (only 160 odd people remember) then a dozen heavily armed marines could handle it and perhaps a properly equipped team could look at this purported derelict once the colony had been dealt with.

Now remember that Burke was acting apparantly on his own, his superiors in the company probably didn't know what he'd done and most just thought it was only a down transmitter. When they arrive and it all goes to hell then Burke, again takes it on himself to infect Newt and Ripley to smuggle the organisms past ICC quarantine. If there had been some massive conspiracy back home then this wouldn't have been necessary. He was betting he could use those samples as leverage to get himself off the hook for sending the initial order (assuming he hadn't covered his tracks already) and set himself up for life.

Once THAT all went pear shaped then clearly a lot more people at Weyland Yutani and probably the military as the Solaco transmits it's logs. So when Fury 161 is infected, they go in loaded for bear (or rather, "loaded for xeno") and could probably have bagged the thing. When they lost that and it was clear the derelict was destroyed (I think Cameron's script mentions it was destroyed in a lava flow) then the whole thing was filed away and mostly forgotten. TWO CENTURIES later, someone, somewhere, somehow, for some reason dusted off the old files that included Ripley's blood samples and decided it'd be worth a go, with the proper precautions.

Based on what they knew of these things, they were very careful. The only thing they didn't anticipate was the degree of intelligence and communication they possessed, which enabled them to stage a break-out. Again though, this was a black project, out in unregulated space and "not approved by congress." So not exactly well known. Even when the Auriga was destroyed it had probably taken everyone who knew about the project with them, except perhaps for some General or another, assuming they weren't on that base the ship came hurtling down on.

Now let's review events; so far we have, at most, a few hundred dead from this thing, spread over two and a half centuries: 6 on the Nostromo, 160-odd colonists, 12 or so marines, 25 convicts + 3 custodians & Ripley and however many didn't escape the Auriga.
While I realise it's hardly a fair measrure, statistically speaking more people die in freak accidents in a year than these things kill in a century. On top of that, to the human race at large, these things don't exist. If any stories ever leaked out it'd probably be regarded on a similar level as the Roswell Crash or the Philadelphia Experiment. Plenty of stories and conspiracy theories but very little actual evidence and not taken very seriously by most people.

Of course, if a whole planet became infected then that all changes. Until that point, the greatest strength the xenos had while dealing with humans was that nobody other than a handful of greedy businessmen or foolish Generals even knew they existed. If on the other hand they start nesting in the sewers of a major city somewhere, then the cat is out of the bag and the gloves are off.

No General or corporation, no matter how profit driven or ambitious would fail to appreciate the immediate danger if these things actually got loose and did some serious damage in a civilian population. Worse case scenario, they loose a planet and most of the population, maybe in the millions. After that, there's no denying these things exist or how they should be dealt with. There may be some additional "outbreaks" but there's no way they could threaten the entire human race. Just like in a lot of zombie apocalypse fiction, at a certain point, people will get over the initial shock, draw a line in the sand and adapt.

Even in that theoretical scenario, I can't see Ripley-8 giving a crap either way.

 

[Silvercrest]

So... Ripley-8 was a Crone Clone?

She was the only one who survived, so she's a Lone Crone Clone.

Also, I believe she was an expert pilot - helped get the ship to Earth at the end of Resurrection - so she's a Flown Lone Crone Clone.

Not to mention that with her fighting skills and buff physique in Resurrection, she was obviously a well-honed Flown Lone Crone Clone.

(groan)

 

[saturn5]

I doubt anyone will be dumb enough to let to happen a second time.

Have you actually watched any of the Alien movies? They've done it. They keep doing it. Anytime Ripley's name pops up or there is some sign of the Xenomorphs, somebody goes and tries to collect samples, tries to bring them back home. "Crew expendable." The people in charge of these projects don't care about the humans involved. They want the weapon, and they will try as many times as it takes to get what they want.

I meant on a large scale where more than a handful of people know about it.

Let's take a look at the sequence of event for a second: *deep breath* In the first film, besides the handful of suits that issued those orders, all anyone outside the Nostromo knew is that a commercial towing vehicle inexplicably dropped off the grid and never made it home. The only ones that would even care would be the family of the crew and like an old ship lost at sea they would probably have just been told it was most likely a malfunction or some natural disaster. When Ripley turned up decades later, nobody in the company from back then was probably still alive evenand I doubt they left a post-it note for their successors saying "P.S. We sent a bunch of space truckers to an alien derelict and probably got them all killed."

The only one who even half believed her story was Burke who took it upon himself to send a prospecting team out to a grid reference. Now admittedly at this point somebody higher up clearly took notice as the colony suddenly went dark and authorised the deployment of a starship with a dozen marines. Remember that if anyone other than Burke believed in Ripley's xenomorph story, all they knew is that a bunch of untrained and unarmed commercial pilots and engineers stumbled onto something nasty and it got all but one killed. So if the same thing had happened to a remote colony (only 160 odd people remember) then a dozen heavily armed marines could handle it and perhaps a properly equipped team could look at this purported derelict once the colony had been dealt with.

Now remember that Burke was acting apparantly on his own, his superiors in the company probably didn't know what he'd done and most just thought it was only a down transmitter. When they arrive and it all goes to hell then Burke, again takes it on himself to infect Newt and Ripley to smuggle the organisms past ICC quarantine. If there had been some massive conspiracy back home then this wouldn't have been necessary. He was betting he could use those samples as leverage to get himself off the hook for sending the initial order (assuming he hadn't covered his tracks already) and set himself up for life.

Once THAT all went pear shaped then clearly a lot more people at Weyland Yutani and probably the military as the Solaco transmits it's logs. So when Fury 161 is infected, they go in loaded for bear (or rather, "loaded for xeno") and could probably have bagged the thing. When they lost that and it was clear the derelict was destroyed (I think Cameron's script mentions it was destroyed in a lava flow) then the whole thing was filed away and mostly forgotten. TWO CENTURIES later, someone, somewhere, somehow, for some reason dusted off the old files that included Ripley's blood samples and decided it'd be worth a go, with the proper precautions.

Based on what they knew of these things, they were very careful. The only thing they didn't anticipate was the degree of intelligence and communication they possessed, which enabled them to stage a break-out. Again though, this was a black project, out in unregulated space and "not approved by congress." So not exactly well known. Even when the Auriga was destroyed it had probably taken everyone who knew about the project with them, except perhaps for some General or another, assuming they weren't on that base the ship came hurtling down on.

Now let's review events; so far we have, at most, a few hundred dead from this thing, spread over two and a half centuries: 6 on the Nostromo, 160-odd colonists, 12 or so marines, 25 convicts + 3 custodians & Ripley and however many didn't escape the Auriga.
While I realise it's hardly a fair measrure, statistically speaking more people die in freak accidents in a year than these things kill in a century. On top of that, to the human race at large, these things don't exist. If any stories ever leaked out it'd probably be regarded on a similar level as the Roswell Crash or the Philadelphia Experiment. Plenty of stories and conspiracy theories but very little actual evidence and not taken very seriously by most people.

Of course, if a whole planet became infected then that all changes. Until that point, the greatest strength the xenos had while dealing with humans was that nobody other than a handful of greedy businessmen or foolish Generals even knew they existed. If on the other hand they start nesting in the sewers of a major city somewhere, then the cat is out of the bag and the gloves are off.

No General or corporation, no matter how profit driven or ambitious would fail to appreciate the immediate danger if these things actually got loose and did some serious damage in a civilian population. Worse case scenario, they loose a planet and most of the population, maybe in the millions. After that, there's no denying these things exist or how they should be dealt with. There may be some additional "outbreaks" but there's no way they could threaten the entire human race. Just like in a lot of zombie apocalypse fiction, at a certain point, people will get over the initial shock, draw a line in the sand and adapt.

Even in that theoretical scenario, I can't see Ripley-8 giving a crap either way.

1. Remember the folks killed in Antartica in AvP and the small town nuked in AvP;R

2. Yeah, I bet on humanity, dumb bugs always get nuked in the end. Break out the Terminators I say (anyone else read that fanfic?)

3. Of course Ripley-8 would care, the whole of Alien 4 is about her regaining her humanity

 

[Davros]

They should just have her Newt and Hicks wake up aboard the Sulaco making the 3rd and 4th movies just dreams she had while in cryo.

 

[saturn5]

They should just have her Newt and Hicks wake up aboard the Sulaco making the 3rd and 4th movies just dreams she had while in cryo.

Amen!

 

[Reverend]

1. Remember the folks killed in Antartica in AvP and the small town nuked in AvP;R

2. Yeah, I bet on humanity, dumb bugs always get nuked in the end. Break out the Terminators I say (anyone else read that fanfic?)

3. Of course Ripley-8 would care, the whole of Alien 4 is about her regaining her humanity

1. AvP? Who cares about that?

2. Two nations chucking thermonuclear warheads at each other on the theory that if they didn't, the other buggers would do it first is quite a different self destructive trait than the equivalent of willingly jumping in a pit of very hungry lions covered in gazelle blood and wearing a sign that says "all felines are arseholes!" One planet, sure. But I'm pretty sure that once one globe with a population in the millions or billions gets infested the others will catch on.

3. The original Ripley wouldn't even care. She was a survivor, not some crusading hero and the only reason she went back in the first instance was so she could sleep at night knowing they'd been wiped out. Ripley-8 wouldn't have that problem.

 

[RoJoHen]

1. AvP? Who cares about that?

It shouldn't matter if anyone cares. The movie happened. Whether it was good or not, I don't like it when writers just ignore things to suit their own story.

3. The original Ripley wouldn't even care. She was a survivor, not some crusading hero and the only reason she went back in the first instance was so she could sleep at night knowing they'd been wiped out. Ripley-8 wouldn't have that problem.

She might not have that problem, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have other motivations for wanting to go. Ripley-8, just in "Alien Resurrection" seemed very curious about the aliens onboard that ship. I could definitely see her wanting to visit the Xenomorph Homeworld for one reason or another. Hell, maybe you're right. Maybe some organization finally got a clue and decided that this species is too dangerous and needs to be wiped out. Maybe this time Ripley actually wants to save them.

Again, I'm not the writer. I don't need to figure it out. I just think there is potential for a really awesome story in there.

 

[Deckerd]

I agree the AvP series are not part of the Alien franchise but a separate (shite) one.

 

[Reverend]

It shouldn't matter if anyone cares. The movie happened. Whether it was good or not, I don't like it when writers just ignore things to suit their own story.

Depends what they're ignoring really. Should an author cripple themselves in telling a good story just because some hack got there first and made a horrible mess of it?

She might not have that problem, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have other motivations for wanting to go. Ripley-8, just in "Alien Resurrection" seemed very curious about the aliens onboard that ship. I could definitely see her wanting to visit the Xenomorph Homeworld for one reason or another. Hell, maybe you're right. Maybe some organization finally got a clue and decided that this species is too dangerous and needs to be wiped out. Maybe this time Ripley actually wants to save them.

Maybe she would at that. Thing is I have a fundamental problem with the idea of a xenomorph homeworld. As I said before, from all previous encounters, we know that however many eggs a queen lays, there are only ever so many hosts. So once they fully infest a planet and the last host gets chestbursted, that's the last Alien that's ever going to exist on that planet...at least until some other fool comes along...which could be years, centuries or millennia (assuming they can go dormant that long.)

I suppose my point is that they're not part of a living ecosystem, they're extinction machines. First their hosts, then themselves. Indeed, that's probably the best evidence behind the idea that they were engineered. Nature couldn't produce a creature like this on it's own, it'd never survive as a species in the wild. It'd just consume everything until it starved to death and can no longer reproduce.

Assuming for a second that there's is a "homeworld" out there, be it the infested homeworld of the Space Jockeys or just some other planet that got overrun, exactly what do you think they'd find there? We saw in 'Alien' that the eggs that weren't under that stasis field were dead husks, the only reason any of them survived was because some part of that ship was still functional. So this "homeworld" would either be a dead world, covered in decaying hives where the last queen and her eggs have longs since died, or a planet with similarly operative storage chambers full of eggs.

If it's the former then any film would be more along the lines of 'At the Mountains of Madness'; interesting but not terribly exciting. If it's the latter then we're back to scientist poking around and it all going pear shaped and that'd just be repeating what's already been done.

Anyway, getting back to Ripley-8, from a character POV, I just can't see her getting involved. I mean curiosity is one thing but I can't see her sticking her head into the proverbial lion's cage just so she'll finally know where that bloody derelict came from. What could possibly motivate her?

I agree the AvP series are not part of the Alien franchise but a separate (shite) one.

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

 

[RoJoHen]

First, I never said a thing about the Space Jockey. I have no interest in seeing where he came from. He may have stumbled across the Xenomorph Homeworld himself and then taken off, only to die once an alien burst through his chest.

I dunno, for all we know, the Xenomorph Homeworld is full of even worse creatures. Maybe their homeworld actually has some predators (note the lack of capitalization) that can hold their own against them. I don't know. I do understand the inherent problem in creating a homeworld for the aliens because, I agree, they are extinction machines. The only way to keep them from dominating a planet is to give them rival species to contend with.

Or hell, I don't know, come up with something else. Maybe the Xeno Homeworld is a giant lab whose sole purpose is to breed these killing machines. Maybe some other alien race DID create them. Their homeworld could be a giant Xeno Factory.

As for Ripley-8, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there. I can see her being drawn to this place. She already died once. I doubt she's terribly concerned with dying again.

 

[Deckerd]

Where did the 'Jockey' come from anyway?

 

[Reverend]

^Jockey=Pilot. Also I think there was also an old Heinlein novel or short story with that name so perhaps it was a bit of a reference (why not? After all Nostromo and Narcissus are both references to Joseph Conrad books.)

Unless of course you mean where did that name get associated with that creature. In that case I think it was actually in one of the scripts. I know Scott refers to it as such in the DVD commentaries...at least I think I do...

I dunno, for all we know, the Xenomorph Homeworld is full of even worse creatures. Maybe their homeworld actually has some predators (note the lack of capitalization) that can hold their own against them. I don't know. I do understand the inherent problem in creating a homeworld for the aliens because, I agree, they are extinction machines. The only way to keep them from dominating a planet is to give them rival species to contend with.

Possible. Whatever it is, it'd have to breed in huge numbers to absorb the losses inherent with co-existing with the xenos (to say nothing of supporting their population), but then if they're "worse" than them AND in greater numbers then they'd wipe THEM out. Combine that with the whole idea of it being able to assimilate and flawlessly incorporate the DNA from non-native lifeforms then the likelihood of this thing being an engineered life-form. Not sure if I made it clear, but when I said it's an extinction machine I really meant a SELF extinction machine. The problem with the perfect predator is that if it eats all the prey, then it quickly runs out of food and starves. Useless for a natural life-form but very handy for an engineered weapon. Drop these things on an enemy planet, wait for them to kill everything then just sit back and wait for all the hives to die before moving in and claiming the place for yourself.

As for Ripley-8, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there. I can see her being drawn to this place. She already died once. I doubt she's terribly concerned with dying again.

Au contraire; I'd say dying once due to these things would be quite sufficient and I doubt she'd be in any hurry to repeat the experience.

Getting back to what I was saying before, while I would like to see new stories with Ripley and that there could be some more interesting stories with the Alien, I don't think those two should need to necessarily go together.

 

[RoJoHen]

Au contraire; I'd say dying once due to these things would be quite sufficient and I doubt she'd be in any hurry to repeat the experience.

And I think she probably doesn't care much either way. Yeah, she'd prefer to live, but for all we know she's not all that worried about dying. Or maybe she doesn't think it's an issue anymore. The Xenos in Alien Resurrection left her alone because they sensed she was one of their kind.

Getting back to what I was saying before, while I would like to see new stories with Ripley and that there could be some more interesting stories with the Alien, I don't think those two should need to necessarily go together.

I can't separate the two. A Ripley story without the Aliens, after 4 stories with the Aliens, would be really bizarre and out of place.

 

[saturn5]

Ripley and Ripley 8 would care, they both love humanity and they're both heroes.

Humanity rules, fire, TV, opposable thumbs, surely it's within our power to give everyone a pulse rifle?

I always thought it was Ripley Scott who coined the phrase Space Jockey in his commentary?

I don't think Ripley would go to the Alien homeworld, I think in Alien 4 she's finally made it to Earth, I think she'd be happy to just be the female Mal Reynolds for a few decades then retire with Cal (Mal, Cal, hmmmmmm?) and found an orphanage