Eddington's vitriolic assessment of The Federation

[Paul Weaver]

As far as active Marquis fighters, it was in the thousands, I think that's the closest number we got.

CHAKOTAY: Something terrible has happened. I read that letter for an hour before I could accept it. Now I have to tell everyone else and I'm not sure how to do it. It's over, B'Elanna. There are no more Maquis.
TORRES: What are you saying? There are thousands of us.

http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/413.htm

Scale has always been a problem in Trek -- losing 39 ships at Wolf 359 was a devestating blow.

 

[Ragitsu]

MILLIONS of Maquis? Color me skeptical.

Is that the only alternative? Because given the situation that existed between 2366 and 2369, almost three years had passed without a war before the Federation started selling out its own people, and it's not at all clear that the Cardassian Union -- which had, of course, just been forced to withdraw from Bajor and lost out on gaining control of the Bajoran Wormhole -- was in any position to launch a resumption of the earlier war that ended in 2366.

Read Farscape One's response.

 

[Sci]

You forget that the Borg invasion occured only a few months before "The Wounded". Starfleet probably did not want to engage in another sustained conflict,

Picard's log entry in "The Wounded" (set in 2367) established that the war had ended a year prior to that episode with a treaty.

Given how large Federation space is, the resources of Starfleet might not have held up as well as we like to think given Shelby said it would take a year to 'get the fleet back up'.

So while the treaty was not ideal, it was better than a continued conflict.

Again, I am not persuaded that the Cardassian Union was in any position to wage a conflict in 2369.

I always got the impression that the Maquis population (total number of people on Maquis worlds) was quite low. I never really thought in terms of 'millions'', though of course, compared to the massive Federation even a population of millions would have been tiny. Is there any statement about their size?

As far as active Marquis fighters, it was in the thousands, I think that's the closest number we got.

If there are thousands of fighters, then that means there would be millions of civilians. Indeed, how could there not be millions for them to be militarily and economically significant enough for this all to even be an issue?

 

[Farscape One]

Picard's log entry in "The Wounded" (set in 2367) established that the war had ended a year prior to that episode with a treaty.



Again, I am not persuaded that the Cardassian Union was in any position to wage a conflict in 2369.





If there are thousands of fighters, then that means there would be millions of civilians. Indeed, how could there not be millions for them to be militarily and economically significant enough for this all to even be an issue?

Which still doesn't negate the danage the Borg did. The admiral in "The Wounded" told Picard the Federation is not ready for a 'new sustained conflict'. Doesn't matter with who, and that episode was the introduction to the Cardassians. At that time, they could easily have done some good damage to Starfleet. And by the way, TNG was on for TWO full years without a peep about a war/conflict/battle/insert other term here with the Cardassians, so we do not know what goes on around the Federation all the time.

And the Cardassians clearly were about to go to war AGAIN in 2369, or did you forget about the events of the "Chain Of Command" two-parter?

And the fact the Maquis had an economy and ships... forgot about those TWELVE industrial replicators, hadn't you? You know, the ones the Maquis stole from DS9 that were going to help the economies of entire star systems? Imagine how much a group like the Maquis can create with those resources with few people.

And by the way, B'Elanna mentioned there were thousands of them, not millions. And no point did we ever see evidence of thousands of ships. The only two powers we ever saw with that large a force, small ships or large, is Starfleet and the Dominion.

 

[DonIago]

It seems reasonable to assume that the Klingons and Romulans had similarly large fleets, but I grant that we didn't see such onscreen.

 

[kkt]

If we're looking at historical examples, how about Israel's return of the Sinai to Egypt in exchange for a peace treaty? This was in the news pretty recently when the DS9 writers were working. Some of the Israeli settlers didn't like having to chose between remaining in the Sinai or going to Israel, there were some protests, but no military action. Nearly all of them did chose going to Israel, in most cases they were returning there. Looks like the largest settler town had a population of about 3000. Yet it was accomplished peacefully, not by a violent process. Also relations between Egypt and Israel have been peaceful ever since.

 

[Sci]

Which still doesn't negate the danage the Borg did. The admiral in "The Wounded" told Picard the Federation is not ready for a 'new sustained conflict'. Doesn't matter with who, and that episode was the introduction to the Cardassians. At that time, they could easily have done some good damage to Starfleet. And by the way, TNG was on for TWO full years without a peep about a war/conflict/battle/insert other term here with the Cardassians, so we do not know what goes on around the Federation all the time.

And none of that speaks to the question of whether the Cardassians were in any real condition to fight a new sustained conflict.

And the Cardassians clearly were about to go to war AGAIN in 2369, or did you forget about the events of the "Chain Of Command" two-parter?

Fascists do overextend themselves sometimes, as Russia is currently proving.

And the fact the Maquis had an economy and ships... forgot about those TWELVE industrial replicators, hadn't you? You know, the ones the Maquis stole from DS9 that were going to help the economies of entire star systems? Imagine how much a group like the Maquis can create with those resources with few people.

The Maquis were already a big problem before they stole those industrial replicators. Ergo, they must have represented a population in the millions for them to matter.

And by the way, B'Elanna mentioned there were thousands of them, not millions. And no point did we ever see evidence of thousands of ships.

Who said anything about thousands of ships? I'm talking about the civilian population the Maquis fighting force would have represented.

Edited to add:

If we're looking at historical examples, how about Israel's return of the Sinai to Egypt in exchange for a peace treaty? This was in the news pretty recently when the DS9 writers were working. Some of the Israeli settlers didn't like having to chose between remaining in the Sinai or going to Israel, there were some protests, but no military action. Nearly all of them did chose going to Israel, in most cases they were returning there. Looks like the largest settler town had a population of about 3000. Yet it was accomplished peacefully, not by a violent process. Also relations between Egypt and Israel have been peaceful ever since.

And you can bet good money that if a comparable scenario had played out -- one where large numbers of Israeli settlers stay in Sinai under Egyptian governance, and then the Egyptian government covertly arms Egyptian militias that start massacring Israeli settlers -- that the Israeli Defense Forces would have been ordered to protect those settlers and the treaty would have been void.

 

[Ragitsu]

Ergo, they must have represented a population in the millions for them to matter.

 

[DonIago]

The Maquis were already a big problem before they stole those industrial replicators. Ergo, they must have represented a population in the millions for them to matter.

I find it interesting that a couple of times when I brought up points that I felt were relevant you dismissed them as non-canonical, but when there's a point that you want to make that's unsupported by canon you freely extrapolate.

 

[Sci]

I find it interesting that a couple of times when I brought up points that I felt were relevant you dismissed them as non-canonical, but when there's a point that you want to make that's unsupported by canon you freely extrapolate.

I do indeed consider an extrapolation to explain something otherwise inexplicable to be more worthy of consideration than speculation that has no evidence and does not explain any otherwise inexplicable canonically-established facts.

 

[Farscape One]

I do indeed consider an extrapolation to explain something otherwise inexplicable to be more worthy of consideration than speculation that has no evidence and does not explain any otherwise inexplicable canonically-established facts.

In other words, you just pick and choose what facts you want to listen to, instead of all the facts. Got it.

Noted for future reference.

 

[Sci]

In other words, you just pick and choose what facts you want to listen to, instead of all the facts. Got it.

Noted for future reference.

No, I just recognize that there are inferences that must be true for canonical facts to make sense, and there are inferences that don't need to be true for canonical facts to make sense.

 

[Paul Weaver]

If there are thousands of fighters, then that means there would be millions of civilians.

OK. That’s the population of a mid sized city, or a small country. That’s a tiny number.

 

[DonIago]

Of course, given that it was Torres, a Maquis herself, claiming there were thousands of fighters, she could have had a vastly unrealistic idea of how many Maquis there really were.

Do I think Eddington and like-minded Maquis would inflate their numbers? Absolutely.

 

[Farscape One]

I do indeed consider an extrapolation to explain something otherwise inexplicable to be more worthy of consideration than speculation that has no evidence and does not explain any otherwise inexplicable canonically-established facts.

No, I just recognize that there are inferences that must be true for canonical facts to make sense, and there are inferences that don't need to be true for canonical facts to make sense.

Okay, let's look at some facts.

Fact 1. "The Wounded" - The admiral said to Picard that the Federation is not prepared for a new sustained conflict.

Fact 2. "Chain Of Command" - The Cardassians, whether you think they were equipped for a war or not, were fully ready to do so. This episode took place, according to stardate, before "EMISSARY", which was when they pulled out of Bajor. By the way, "EMISSARY" also aired about 2 weeks after the TNG two-parter, so the stardates AND the airdates match in this case.

Fact 3. The Maquis started the entire thing by blowing up the Bok'Nor in "THE MAQUIS, PART I". Then also kidnapped Dukat. Whether they were justified or not isn't the point, they fired first.

Fact 4. Commander Cal Hudson, a high ranking Starfleet officer, was involved in all those events. As a Starfleet officer and Federation citizen, he was gutting a treaty they signed in good faith. Which means it can easily be construed as the Federation supporting the Maquis, unless they actually go after them.

Fact 5. He didn't bother with bringing the evidence to the Federation and kept fighting.

Fact 6. The Maquis were made up of a lot of former Starfleet officers... many of whom used their positions to steal from Starfleet to further the Maquis. From the Cardassian perspective, they were Federation citizens and it was the Federation's responsibility to go after them. And this would be accurate, since so many of them commited treason instead of going the cleaner route of resigning and leaving to fight with the Maquis.

Of course Starfleet is going after them.

And this is before the events of "DEFIANT", the weakening of the Obsidian Order and Cardassian government, the Klingon invasion of their empire, and the theft of those industrial replicators.

In DS9 season 3, we hardly heard about the Maquis. But since the Cardassians got stomped by the Klingons in season 4, they clearly took the opportunity and got bolder and moved from defending their colonies to outright aggression.

If Starfleet DID NOT go after them, the Cardassians would have started another conflict, which if you remember fact number one, the Federation was not prepared for one. They didn't want one, so the treaty was made so there would be some semblance of peace in the region.


So... which of these facts are you going to ignore?

 

[at Quark's]

I estimate the Maquis population to be about a third of the Federation's in terms of proportion.

After all, this proportion was pretty much evidenced throughout the entirety of Voyager's run, all seven years worth of episodes, not just by a single near-forgotten quote.

(translation: it's pretty easy to take stuff out of context and try to make it mean more than it does. For example, we don't exactly know who B' Elanna is really talking about when she says 'there are thousands of us'. Was she talking about active fighters, or 'civilians' too? We don't know for sure, though I agree that 'active fighters' is a likely explanation. I'm not even sure what a 'Maquis' is, technically speaking, anyway. Are those the active fighters only, or are those supposed 'civilians' that don't fight but live on ' Maquis worlds' and nominally support the cause, Maquis, too?)

 

[Ragitsu]

 

[DonIago]

I estimate the Maquis population to be about a third of the Federation's in terms of proportion.

After all, this proportion was pretty much evidenced throughout the entirety of Voyager's run, all seven years worth of episodes, not just by a single near-forgotten quote.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If you're saying that you believe 1/3 of the Federation was made up of Maquis, then read on... Otherwise, you're welcome to disregard.

What's your basis for this, please?

Why would 1/3 of the Federation live on worlds in the DMZ? Federation territory is vast. It seems most likely to me (though I grant this isn't canon) that most of the population lives toward the core worlds: Earth/Vulcan/Andor/Tellar/etc., with a significant number living elsewhere...but the DMZ?

I'm not sure what you mean by using Voyager as an example either, since the entire premise of the show is that a significant portion of the crew was going to be made up of people who'd been on Chakotay's ship. This seems akin to trying to use the proportion of Starfleet vs. civilians on the E-D to claim that the Federation in general shared those proportions. Perhaps I misunderstood you?

 

[at Quark's]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If you're saying that you believe 1/3 of the Federation was made up of Maquis, then read on... Otherwise, you're welcome to disregard.

I said that, yes, but I was just joking by making a ludicrous claim by ignoring the context that didn't suit me (in this case, the series' premise).

 

[DonIago]

Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying!