Eddington's vitriolic assessment of The Federation

[kkt]

There's no death sentence in The Federation and - for a reason I can't quite put my finger on - I doubt she received life imprisonment.

I didn't advocate for a death sentence, just someplace more like prison and less like a vacation club. Recognize that her sabatoging the communications resulted in the deaths of several of her kidnapping victims that could have been saved with outside help.

The Federation had a death sentence for landing on Talos IV. I don't think they repealed it.

Keeping people in prison is expensive and if she's no longer in a position to re-offend they'd probably let her out on supervised probation. Just make sure she's not in charge of a colony ship.

 

[Sci]

I think the only real difference between Alixus and Winn is the former gained power by creating a cult, while the latter gained power from a cult that already existed. (Let's be honest, all religions are a cult in one form or another. Some are harmless and try to do good things, while many are harmful.)

I think you're confusing your sufficient and your necessary conditions. The anthropologist Clifford Geertz defined religion as "a system of symbols which acts to establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in men by formulating conceptions of a general order of existence." So that can encompass a cult, but it also encompasses systems that are far too large not to be fields of contention between different factions, and it encompasses systems that are far too abstract or loosely-organized to function with any meaningful level of control over their adherents. All cults are religions, but not all religions are cults; all humans are mammals but not all mammals are humans.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I didn't advocate for a death sentence, just someplace more like prison and less like a vacation club. Recognize that her sabatoging the communications resulted in the deaths of several of her kidnapping victims that could have been saved with outside help.

The Federation had a death sentence for landing on Talos IV. I don't think they repealed it.

Keeping people in prison is expensive and if she's no longer in a position to re-offend they'd probably let her out on supervised probation. Just make sure she's not in charge of a colony ship.

Death's too good for Alixus.

 

[Ragitsu]

I didn't advocate for a death sentence, just someplace more like prison and less like a vacation club.

That was me speaking aloud; apologies if I accidentally implied something I didn't mean to imply.

 

[Ragitsu]

All cults are religions, but not all religions are cults.

Contestable.

In any case, logic/reason is deliberately ignored to some extent.

 

[fireproof78]

Contestable.

In any case, logic/reason is deliberately ignored to some extent.

Humans are not fully logical beings. This is especially apparent in cultures that dismisses emotions as "childish" or without any willingness to acknowledge healthy emotional expression. So, of course people will turn to things that satisfy them in some emotional way. That's how humans are.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Of course humans aren't logical. But that's the thing, we don't HAVE to be.

Humans GET to be emotional. If we act bitter, spiteful, illogical, or whatever the hell you want to call it, we're just within our wheelhouse.

Vulcans - like Captain Solok - don't have that excuse. They've failed to live up to their cultural requirements. We don't.

 

[Sci]

All cults are religions, but not all religions are cults.

Contestable.

In any case, logic/reason is deliberately ignored to some extent.

That is a deeply unfair statement that ignores the many ways in which a system may be a religion without making claims about the existence of the supernatural, ignores the ways in which people can be religious and also embrace rational values, and ignores the ways in which logic itself is merely a tool that is only as good as its a priori assumptions.

Of course humans aren't logical. But that's the thing, we don't HAVE to be.

Humans GET to be emotional. If we act bitter, spiteful, illogical, or whatever the hell you want to call it, we're just within our wheelhouse.

Vulcans - like Captain Solok - don't have that excuse. They've failed to live up to their cultural requirements. We don't.

I mean, no one was talking about Vulcans here so I don't really see the relevance.

 

[Ragitsu]

That is a deeply unfair statement

No, it isn't; it is an entirely accurate statement.

 

[Sci]

No, it isn't; it is an entirely accurate statement.

No, it's just bigoted.

 

[Ragitsu]

Fiery giants, six-armed goddesses, sapient serpents, stones with spirits, a special people, transmutations ignoring the laws of physics, consumption of specific animals being indicative of poor moral fiber, et cetera...

Take your pick.

 

[Sci]

Fiery giants, six-armed goddesses, sapient serpents, stones with spirits, a special people, transmutations ignoring the laws of physics, consumption of specific animals being indicative of poor moral fiber, et cetera...

Take your pick.

"I'll take 'Reductive characterizations removed from context so as to promote bigotry' for 500, Alex."

 

[Ragitsu]

Are you on retainer for Old Scratch or is this a side gig?

 

[Ragitsu]

The one I always liked was when someone is gradually taught and subsequently genuinely believes that their religion is THE authority on ethics, morality and the origin of the universe (i.e., e-ver-y-thing); they sincerely take the scriptures to heart. The Supreme Being (or Beings) truly are supreme and entirely infallible.

...and then they happen to fall in love with someone practicing a different religion or someone who is irreligious. As a compromise, beliefs are typically changed. All it takes is another mortal agreeable to the brain chemistry of the first person to render that Absolute Truth - the fundamentals of all existence - null and void.

 

[TheSeeker]

Okay folks, lets try and stay on topic. This line of discussion has the potential to go downhill very quickly.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

At least Winn never collaborated with her Cardassian occupiers?

That we know of.

Wouldn't surprise me, though. She threw in her lot with the Pah-wraiths, didn't she?

 

[fireproof78]

That we know of.

Wouldn't surprise me, though. She threw in her lot with the Pah-wraiths, didn't she?

Winn's decision always struck me as one of unmet expectations and a slow erosion of the purpose of her beliefs. It sounds like it served her for a time, but then became more a way of her expanding her power, which ended up putting her at odds with people like Sisko, and Kira. So, when it no longer would facilitate her power ambitions it became less useful.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I do seem to recall Winn saying that she was held captive by the Cardassians during the Occupation and was beaten for practicing her faith. But can we really take anything she says at face value? For all we know she made the whole thing up and was collaborating with the Cardies the whole time.

As I said, it wouldn't surprise me one bit. That's totally within her wheelhouse.

 

[danellis]

I do seem to recall Winn saying that she was held captive by the Cardassians during the Occupation and was beaten for practicing her faith. But can we really take anything she says at face value? For all we know she made the whole thing up and was collaborating with the Cardies the whole time.

As I said, it wouldn't surprise me one bit. That's totally within her wheelhouse.

Or perhaps she was taken, beaten, and the beatings worked.

Any version the writer chose could be made to work.

Personally, I think she felt unrewarded by the Prophets: as she saw it, she'd given her life to their worship, only to be ignored by them, while those with "lesser faith," or even aliens (Sisko even Dax) were rewarded by them. IIRC she'd never even had an orb vision.

dJE

 

[Ragitsu]

That we know of.

Wouldn't surprise me, though. She threw in her lot with the Pah-wraiths, didn't she?

It is surely possible, but I don't see the value in piling on unverified offenses with a character whose known misdeeds are plentiful enough; besides which, the best liars often mix in the truth here and there (it makes for a more convincing sales pitch).