Early Saru Design

[Rahul]

Thank goodness someone thought better about the Saru design. Multiple eyes like that almost unavoidably invoke spiders, and that's just too damn creepy for any character that's supposed to be at all sympathetic.

Moving on, I definitely don't want to see the Borg in DSC. Especially if the thinking involved is like this...

"Go to [H.R.] Geiger and steampunk and find a way to combine it..."​

Oh, gods no. That is not the kind of look the Trek universe needs, not by a long shot.

And then there's this...

"...definitely – as many times as I can put it forth – I want to get one of those refrigeration suits off and see what the Breen look like."​

So obviously someone is completely unfamiliar with what Treklit has done with the Breen (i.e., they don't have any single look under those suits, because Breen society is a multi-species construct).

The Geiger influence sounds good to me, for the nightmarish Borg, but why in God's name they choose to do a prequel, then skip to the future to further dilute a once-great enemy, I just don't get.

I like the idea of the Breen remaining a mystery in canon and would hope they make them even more WTF(!) mysterious instead of less. That said, I'd be happy if they went another route with the Breen, if they did something as interesting as the books. Just making a random alien to stick under the mask would be underwhelming.

I think both the Breen and the Borg still have some very interesting stories to be told, and I would look forward to see them both again, if it wouldn't be the main plot of a new show, but rather a short revisit.

But there's a special place for it: A sequel.

They need to get their hands off of fucking both of them in a prequel show! I would be interested to see what happens to them next, after their defeats. But an unnecessary backstory that contradicts their later appereances is the LEAST thing I want to see of them! Goddamn it. I STILL don't get why they chose to do another prequel. ENT wasn't bad - but it had plenty of problems. Especially because of the prequel setting! And instead of learning from them, the new Trek producers apparently decided to double down on them. On the very. exact. same. ones.

 

[PiotrB]

But there's a special place for it: A sequel.

Why sequel? Imho Borg story is easily doable and continuity and canon compatible in 23rd century with ship like Discovery. After First Contact movie, Borg episode from ENT and episode about 7o9's parents there is no obstacle for story about classified Borg research mission in Delta quadrant with connection to FC and ENT. Good episode script could connect even section 31 to this event.

 

[Rahul]

Oh god no.

 

[Lord Garth]

The Mirror Universe has been Classified. That's DSC's "get out of jail free" card, as far as I'm concerned. You can only classify so many things before it starts to become ridiculous. *

* If someone wants to bring up something from ENT, I don't care what they did. I only care about what DSC does.

... and I think Seven of Nine's parents only know about the Borg because of what they heard from the El-Aurians whose world was destroyed by them. The Enterprise-B rescued some El-Aurian refugees from the Lakul, so the Federation probably heard of them (in a non-super-secret-classified manner) as early as the 2290s, but didn't consider them an actual threat until Q flung the Enterprise-D right in front of a Cube.

 

[Rahul]

I like how ENT dealt with the Borg: There were only a handfull of them, hurt, and on a defunct ship. And still posed one of the more serious threats. But they were contained/defeated by the end of the episode. Essentially a zombie prequel, where the zombie virus never really left the laboratory, and thus no one knew what true risk it containts.

They weren't even one of the harder antagonists Archer faced. Thus it makes sense that, even with full records, Archers brief encounter with the Borg was somewhat "forgotten" inbetween the other adventures of the NX-01, nothing but a footnote for Historians.

It allowed them to give us, the viewers, the feeling of the Borg menace one more time, even though the characters never really knew what they were dealing with. And that the Federation will only learn hundreds of years later the true danger of the Borg, when they are not dealing with three rogue drones, but massive cubes with thousands of them. That was a prequel done right.

But now this type of prequel has already been done. The episode already exists.

I fear if the creators of Discovery would give us the Borg again, they won't be able to refrain from using cubes and the full scale Borg orchestra. And that will inevitably break continuity. AND further diminish the appeal of the Borg, as they will get even more easier to defeat - now even by people 100 years less technological advanced than Picard.

 

[Lord Garth]

I like how ENT dealt with the Borg: There were only a handfull of them, hurt, and on a defunct ship. And still posed one of the more serious threats. But they were contained/defeated by the end of the episode. Essentially a zombie prequel, where the zombie virus never really left the laboratory, and thus no one knew what true risk it containts.

They weren't even one of the harder antagonists Archer faced. Thus it makes sense that, even with full records, Archers brief encounter with the Borg was somewhat "forgotten" inbetween the other adventures of the NX-01, nothing but a footnote for Historians.

It allowed them to give us, the viewers, the feeling of the Borg menace one more time, even though the characters never really knew what they were dealing with. And that the Federation will only learn hundreds of years later the true danger of the Borg, when they are not dealing with three rogue drones, but massive cubes with thousands of them. That was a prequel done right.

But now this type of prequel has already been done. The episode already exists.

Yeah, I have to give credit where credit is due. That was a good episode of ENT. And a prequel done right. Just a couple of drones frozen over from FC. That's basically the only way you could have the Borg pre-TNG.

In DSC, if they find out how to defeat the Borg, it makes Shelby look foolish 100 years later, and it makes Starfleet look foolish. Not to mention, why would Section 31 want to classify something like how to defeat the Borg during a time like Wolf 359? Doesn't make any sense.

 

[PiotrB]

The Mirror Universe has been Classified. That's DSC's "get out of jail free" card, as far as I'm concerned. You can only classify so many things before it starts to become ridiculous.

FFS. My post wasn't real episode synopsis. It was only first idea how not to break continuity. But I agree that there is no need to classify hypothetical Borg encounter with Discovery. Almost century later Spore drive is failure and mission reports are only historical data which could have been found by Annika's parents when they researched Federation's and earlier encounters with Borg.

and I think Seven of Nine's parents only know about the Borg because of what they heard from the El-Aurians whose world was destroyed by them.

This is only your head canon. It would be strange if they did not know Archer's report and perhaps even ZC story. Query of Federation database for similar stories is the first thing they would do when they decided to study Borg. So there is plenty of space for DSC's report too.

I fear if the creators of Discovery would give us the Borg again, they won't be able to refrain from using cubes and the full scale Borg orchestra. And that will inevitably break continuity.

Just a couple of drones frozen over from FC. That's basically the only way you could have the Borg pre-TNG.

Nope. Thanks to Spore drive continuity does not fold or break even if "they won't be able to refrain from using cubes, spheres, transwarp hubs and the full scale Borg orchestra". This is beauty of displacement-activated spore hub drive. Discovery can jump everywhere in galaxy. Results of this jumps century later are in same place where is genesis device or superior warp drive (journey to center of the galaxy) or all other forgotten technology from 23rd century. Not on the first page of theirs Bing or Google like search engine of Federation Cloud (my head retcon for Federation Database which is so pre internet name )

In DSC, if they find out how to defeat the Borg, it makes Shelby look foolish 100 years later, and it makes Starfleet look foolish.

Depends how you define defeat. If as escape and deal with few drones on board then there is no problem at all.

Not to mention, why would Section 31

Again this was not real episode synopsis.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm all for Discovery jumping out of the 23rd Century. I've openly theorized about it. What they do in the 23rd Century and what they do out of it are two different things. Though, I'm hoping once they jump ahead to another time period, they stay there or go further ahead.

 

[lawman]

Thanks to Spore drive continuity does not fold or break even if "they won't be able to refrain from using cubes, spheres, transwarp hubs and the full scale Borg orchestra". This is beauty of displacement-activated spore hub drive. Discovery can jump everywhere in galaxy. Results of this jumps century later are in same place where is genesis device or superior warp drive (journey to center of the galaxy) or all other forgotten technology from 23rd century.

Maybe not broken, but certainly "folded"... or to switch metaphors, frayed around the edges and seams, with a few holes poked in it. Story elements like those you mention, that have to be forgotten or handwaved away for future stories to work, are problems. All else equal, you don't want to multiply them, you want to minimize them.

Not on the first page of theirs Bing or Google like search engine of Federation Cloud (my head retcon for Federation Database which is so pre internet name )

I suspect that by the 23rd century the Internet will be about as relevant as the Pony Express and long forgotten, and I fervently hope that the term "the cloud" will be relegated to the dustbin of history — it's a poor metaphor used as a marketing gimmick, nothing more nor less. By contrast, a database is a simple word describing a genuine thing, a thing of a type that will presumably remain useful in the future completely independent of the specific technological substrate that houses it.

 

[Lord Garth]

At the risk of taking this thread in a tangent, what do you see replacing the Internet? I imagine that people will want to continue to be able to communicate with each other in large groups and in virtual social or business settings in the future.

I don't think Web 2.0 will last forever. Something will eventually replace it, but what would replace the Internet wholesale? I think it would just become a different or more advanced version of what it is right now.

 

[lawman]

I expect some form of sophisticated, networked information sharing and communications will exist (assuming of course no collapse of civilization or anything like that). I just think it'll have about as much resemblance to today's Internet as the latest iPhone does to a rotary phone from generations ago. I imagine that things like IP addresses, XTML, keyboards, screens, and anything resembling today's UIs will eventually become obsolete. IOW, a very "different or more advanced version of what it is right now," probably going by some other name.

 

[SolarisOne]

*looks at proto-Saru*
"NOPE train ready to depart for Fuckthatsville--ALL ABOARD!"
Saru's finalized makeup fits his personality perfectly.

 

[Qonundrum]

Those eyes are overkill.

Might be worse. Imagine if all the eyes were larger than softballs. Like, when adjusted to scale, some of these folks:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/25/disney-princess-eyes-bigger-stomachs_n_7665294.html

 

[Arpy]

I'm less disturbed by the eyes (again, if animated well) than I am by their alienness juxtaposed against the human-like mouth. You don't just want it to look like an actor is wearing a cumbersome helmet but a living being as at ease with his form as we are with ours.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Well that’s an eyesore

 

[EmoBorg]

Plus if they're unwilling to show Romulans because of Balance of Terror, they won't do the Borg either.

Maybe we can get to see a Romulan agent pretending to be Vulcan like what we saw in ENT.

 

[F. King Daniel]

In DSC, if they find out how to defeat the Borg, it makes Shelby look foolish 100 years later, and it makes Starfleet look foolish. Not to mention, why would Section 31 want to classify something like how to defeat the Borg during a time like Wolf 359? Doesn't make any sense.

More foolish than Kirk and Spock look for thinking cloaking devices were theoretical in "Balance of Terror", when they were widespread just 10 years before?

They don't care. If they want Borg or Romulans, they'll do whatever they want and "future" generations be damned.

 

[Tuskin38]

when they were widespread just 10 years before?

You mean 100 years before?

Why do you keep ignoring enterprise?

 

[Lord Garth]

More foolish than Kirk and Spock look for thinking cloaking devices were theoretical in "Balance of Terror", when they were widespread just 10 years before?

They don't care. If they want Borg or Romulans, they'll do whatever they want and "future" generations be damned.

I gave no opinion whatsoever about the Romulans.

 

[Lord Garth]

You mean 100 years before?

Why do you keep ignoring enterprise?

I'm going to guess it was because he was responding to me. If he mentioned something about ENT, I basically would've said a politer version of "You've confused me with someone who gives a shit about Enterprise."