Early plans reveal fate of the Suliban
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
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They did the same thing with TNG/DS9/VOY and the Maquis
As pointed out, the early episodes of Enterprise had been shotbor scripted before 9-11 2001.
It's not unreasonable to think that B&B might be thinking ahead to the next series as they planned the last season of Voyager.
But, obviously, Voyager ran for seven seasons. But was that definite as season six went into production? I can't recall. If not, the idea of seeding the next show in Voyager 6 makes sense.
It's not unreasonable to think that B&B might be thinking ahead to the next series as they planned the last season of Voyager.
But, obviously, Voyager ran for seven seasons. But was that definite as season six went into production? I can't recall. If not, the idea of seeding the next show in Voyager 6 makes sense.
Yeah, that's literally why the Maquis were introduced in TNG; because they'd already planned the Starfleet/Maquis split in Voyager as one of the key concepts once that show started up post-TNG. (Ironically there was no intention at first for them to be a big DS9 thing at all, it was purely for Voyager.)
The Ferengi and Cardassians appeared long before DS9 was created. The Maquis were introduced in TNG so they could be a part of Voyager.
It's not at all unreasonable that a concept would be introduced in one show to be spun off fully in the next.
Although with no intention of spinning them off when they were created of course. Really, DS9's concept was a hodgepodge of elements previously used in TNG, either specifically or in general concept -- Bajorans, Cardassians, Ferengi, Trill, shapeshifters. They borrowed a lot from TNG: "The Price" -- not only the idea of wormholes (still a relatively unexplored concept in science fiction when "The Price" was made), but the idea that a traversable wormhole would be a valuable commodity that civilizations would compete over, as well as the idea of the galaxy being subdivided into quadrants with Greek-letter designations.
@Christopher's point isn't that it precludes it, it's that it doesn't support it; it neither precludes nor supports, it's unrelated. There was a lot of stuff in DS9 drawn from TNG, yeah, but @guyute03 wasn't doubting that later shows would use things from earlier shows, they were doubting that Berman and Braga would introduce something in an earlier show to set up something in a later show. Examples of things in TNG that were carried over to DS9 aren't evidence either for or against the idea of Berman and Braga introducing something to set up for a later show, it would have to be an example of something that was done for that specific reason to support the idea.
The Maquis were setup in TNG specifically for Caretaker.
Idran has the right of it. Yes, the Maquis are a good example for what we're talking about, because they were, in fact, created to set up the next spinoff. But the Ferengi and Cardassians are not an applicable example for what we're talking about, because both were created purely to be part of TNG itself, and only years later were reused by the next spinoff.
Well yeah, I know; I even said that in the post before you mentioned it originally.
We're all in agreement, it's just that some of the stuff you said isn't actually evidence in support of (or against) what we're in agreement on.
I have a memo from Brannon Braga to Rick Berman dated January 31, 2001, which discusses network notes (in other words, UPN) on "Broken Bow" and identifies the Suliban by name. Other ideas were still in flux at that point ("Trip" was nicknamed "Spike," T'pol was still intended to be T'Pau from "Amok Time," etc.), but the Suliban name was nailed down, long before the 9/11 attacks.
Based on the finding aid, the earliest development notes about Enterprise in the Joe Menosky papers at UCLA are dated April of 2000. That would have been after season six of Star Trek: Voyager wrapped production, but before it finished airing. It's not unreasonable to imagine that Braga and Berman began work on the proposed spin-off before sharing any notes with someone like Menosky.
Plus, even beyond that, they were named after the Taliban. Before 9/11. Berman had visited Afghanistan back in the late 90s when the Taliban were first taking power, and something about the name struck him as a very dramatic name, something naturally antagonistic.
It's not like the Taliban just popped into existence on 9/11, @TheSubCommander. They'd been around since 1991, and they'd controlled Afghanistan since 1996.
I mean Broken Bow was aired on September 26th; you really think they would've rushed reshoots or ADR days before airing to change the name of their villain to a reference to such a horrific attack that had hit just a couple weeks earlier? I could see a show doing that to remove something that seemed referential, but to add one?
As I pointed out back in post #14 of this thread.
I'd guess that Berman finding the name Taliban "dramatic" and "antagonistic" has to do with its similarity to Caliban from The Tempest. I always wondered if that was an influence on the Suliban name as well, but if so, I guess it was indirect.
YeahWell yeah, I know; I even said that in the post before you mentioned it originally.
We're all in agreement, it's just that some of the stuff you said isn't actually evidence in support of (or against) what we're in agreement on.
what all that shows is that elements could be developed in one incarnation and used in later series.
Yeah
But that's not what we're talking about here. The memo reprinted in the first post clearly states that the Suliban were conceived specifically for Enterprise and would be introduced in Voyager merely for the purpose of setting them up for the next series -- in the same way that the Maquis were created for VGR and were used in TNG and DS9 merely to set up the next spinoff. That's different from the Ferengi, Cardassians, Bajorans, etc., which were created solely for TNG itself and only years later adopted for DS9.
The Suliban is that description sound a bit similar to the Xindi.
I wonder if things were being set up in Voyager for them to make a play in the 22nd century. They lose big in the 24th century and get help from Future aliens to take on Starfleet in an earlier time. A bit like the Sphere builders and Xindi.
I wonder if things were being set up in Voyager for them to make a play in the 22nd century. They lose big in the 24th century and get help from Future aliens to take on Starfleet in an earlier time. A bit like the Sphere builders and Xindi.
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