Dune Part 2 2023 (24, 25, 26...)

[fireproof78]

Oh, as in he got the novel's name right and most of the characters' names right, set it in a desert, but otherwise gave some characters dialogue more suited to an American sitcom, genderswapped another character for a flimsy reason, and more other things than I've got time to mention now?

Yup. Usually what I see, and really expect, in adaptations.

 

[FPAlpha]

There is obviously a way to film this book without ignoring the very strict water discipline the Fremen live under. The miniseries, while not perfect, is much better at this than either movie. If Villeneuve was going to copy, rather than go by the novel as he falsely claimed he did, he should have done what the miniseries did.

The actors don't have to have their faces covered unless they're in the open desert, wearing a stillsuit. These people live on a planet where water is so precious that shedding tears is treated as a gesture deserving of awe ("giving water to the dead"). To see water so openly and egregiously wasted in these movies makes me think the directors didn't actually understand the novel.

You really want to die on that hill, don't you? Why is this single issue so hugely important that it derails the entire movie for you?

Most of the movie takes place on a desert planet and we all know since childhood that it usually doesn't rain in a desert and that water is extremely important when you're in the desert. The movie gives us a scene where they have to close the blinds in the Arrakeen palace due to the mid day heat, we see that Palm trees are watered with the second most precious ressource on Arrakis, we have the really important table spit scene reinforcing two things - customs are completely different on Arrakis and giving water to someone, even a little, is a huge thing.

These are all the things the movie does to hammer home the importance of water on that planet and the movie turns to shit for you because the actors ( who we paid good money to see act out their roles) didn't have their faces covered at all times? Very strange. This is not The Mandalorian, where him never taking off the helmet is a core element of the show ( Fremen do take off the masks when inside a structure) and only recently they kind of "admitted" that most of the time the Mandalorian is played by a stunt guy and Pedro Pascal is just providing the voice. Do you want the same for Dune?

I have much more pressing concerns when it comes to elements of the book not being used yet - Other Memory being the biggest. That one is very central to the book and the universe and very important to some characters, Alia in particular, and Villeneuve didn't even lay the groundwork for it in the first movie. So either he's not planning to use it at all or he has a plan to introduce it in the second movie, either way it will be interesting to see what he does or doesn't with that element.

If he doesn't use it but conveys it in other ways why Paul is so special other than his prescience i could let it slide and after seeing the first movie i am in good hope. Most people with the in depth training could use the voice for example, that doesn't make Paul too special since he had access to a teacher ( in violation of Bene Gesserit rules broken by Jessica).

 

[wayoung]

You really want to die on that hill, don't you? Why is this single issue so hugely important that it derails the entire movie for you?

Most of the movie takes place on a desert planet and we all know since childhood that it usually doesn't rain in a desert and that water is extremely important when you're in the desert. The movie gives us a scene where they have to close the blinds in the Arrakeen palace due to the mid day heat, we see that Palm trees are watered with the second most precious ressource on Arrakis, we have the really important table spit scene reinforcing two things - customs are completely different on Arrakis and giving water to someone, even a little, is a huge thing.

These are all the things the movie does to hammer home the importance of water on that planet and the movie turns to shit for you because the actors ( who we paid good money to see act out their roles) didn't have their faces covered at all times? Very strange. This is not The Mandalorian, where him never taking off the helmet is a core element of the show ( Fremen do take off the masks when inside a structure) and only recently they kind of "admitted" that most of the time the Mandalorian is played by a stunt guy and Pedro Pascal is just providing the voice. Do you want the same for Dune?

I have much more pressing concerns when it comes to elements of the book not being used yet - Other Memory being the biggest. That one is very central to the book and the universe and very important to some characters, Alia in particular, and Villeneuve didn't even lay the groundwork for it in the first movie. So either he's not planning to use it at all or he has a plan to introduce it in the second movie, either way it will be interesting to see what he does or doesn't with that element.

If he doesn't use it but conveys it in other ways why Paul is so special other than his prescience i could let it slide and after seeing the first movie i am in good hope. Most people with the in depth training could use the voice for example, that doesn't make Paul too special since he had access to a teacher ( in violation of Bene Gesserit rules broken by Jessica).

If I may make a suggestion, block and move on. I can't see the post you're replying too, so it's someone I already got tired of listening to. It makes life so much easier.

 

[The Wormhole]

Oh, as in he got the novel's name right and most of the characters' names right, set it in a desert, but otherwise gave some characters dialogue more suited to an American sitcom, genderswapped another character for a flimsy reason, and more other things than I've got time to mention now?

Still more accurate than the Jodorowsky version would have been.

 

[Neroon]

If I may make a suggestion, block and move on. I can't see the post you're replying too, so it's someone I already got tired of listening to. It makes life so much easier.

As helpful as it may be trying to be, please avoid talking about blocking other posters.

 

[wayoung]

As helpful as it may be trying to be, please avoid talking about blocking other posters.

Message deleted as per recommendation of another user

 

[FPAlpha]

Is it because even though I don't know who they're talking about it can be taken as a targeted movement to get people to block specific people, or is the block function in general not supposed to be mentioned? Not arguing, trying to figure it out since there's nothing in the rules about it.

He's all up in arms because at times the Fremen are not completely covered head to toe in the movie while in the desert and is taking a dump on Villeneuve for it because the book describes it otherwise. Also he's shitting on Villeneuve for copying ( in his opinion) Lynch scenes and designs - well, they have adapted the same same book so there's bound to be similarities.

 

[wayoung]

He's all up in arms because at times the Fremen are not completely covered head to toe in the movie while in the desert and is taking a dump on Villeneuve for it because the book describes it otherwise. Also he's shitting on Villeneuve for copying ( in his opinion) Lynch scenes and designs - well, they have adapted the same same book so there's bound to be similarities.

Oh I wasn't asking what whomever it was said

(Rest of message deleted as per recommendation of another user)

 

[The Nth Doctor]

For what it's worth, Timewalker is a woman.

 

[fireproof78]

He's all up in arms because at times the Fremen are not completely covered head to toe in the movie while in the desert and is taking a dump on Villeneuve for it because the book describes it otherwise. Also he's shitting on Villeneuve for copying ( in his opinion) Lynch scenes and designs - well, they have adapted the same same book so there's bound to be similarities.

Adaptations are hard. I've run up against this myself when I was younger and preferred adaptations to be far more literal in their approach to the material. As I have gotten a little older, I am less emphatic about literalism in an adaptation. I recall my frustration with adaptations of Starship Troopers, or Baby Blues and especially Garfield comics. It was just so irritating. Or, like Dune were they added in scenes for no good reason.

But, now, I try to take adaptations in stride, and recognize that how the production team approaches this is not just a reflection of the adapted work but also their own views of the work. That they don't emphasis a thing I find important reflects individual variation.

Is it because even though I don't know who they're talking about it can be taken as a targeted movement to get people to block specific people, or is the block function in general not supposed to be mentioned? Not arguing, trying to figure it out since there's nothing in the rules about it.

From my experience saying to ignore another user is frowned upon and considered uncouth. I would advise messaging Neroon directly to get the answer.

 

[wayoung]

Fair enough @fireproof78 I'll delete my reply and message directly

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Adaptations are hard. I've run up against this myself when I was younger and preferred adaptations to be far more literal in their approach to the material. As I have gotten a little older, I am less emphatic about literalism in an adaptation. I recall my frustration with adaptations of Starship Troopers, or Baby Blues and especially Garfield comics. It was just so irritating. Or, like Dune were they added in scenes for no good reason.

But, now, I try to take adaptations in stride, and recognize that how the production team approaches this is not just a reflection of the adapted work but also their own views of the work. That they don't emphasis a thing I find important reflects individual variation.

I've traveled a similar path regarding literature and I've learned just as you are that some leniency has to be allowed. Plus, as Neil Gaiman himself noted regarding The Sandman, it's also fine to update the story wherever needed and those changes can even be necessary improvements.

I think part of what helped me to be more acceptable of adaptations is Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. It has existed in many formats over the years and Douglas Adams himself made significant changes to the stories from radio to print to television (and I think he even made some changes with the film prior to his death but I can't swear to it).

The point is adaptation is just a representaton of the story in a different form and it's not replacing the original. Each medium has positives and negatives and changes often have to be made because certain things won't work well in different mediums.

That all said, I can still be grumpy about certain adaptations and how that influences audiences about the nature of their stories (notably Disney's The Hunchback of North Dame and Hercules, both changed from terrible tragedies into lighthearted adventures).

 

[Timewalker]

You really want to die on that hill, don't you? Why is this single issue so hugely important that it derails the entire movie for you?

If you've really read my posts regarding Dune, it is by far NOT the "single issue" that derails the movie for me. It's just one of them.

Most of the movie takes place on a desert planet and we all know since childhood that it usually doesn't rain in a desert and that water is extremely important when you're in the desert. The movie gives us a scene where they have to close the blinds in the Arrakeen palace due to the mid day heat, we see that Palm trees are watered with the second most precious ressource on Arrakis, we have the really important table spit scene reinforcing two things - customs are completely different on Arrakis and giving water to someone, even a little, is a huge thing.

I keep my blinds closed here to keep the worst of the heat out, and I live in Western Canada. It helps a bit with the heat, but would do nothing for water conservation.

These are all the things the movie does to hammer home the importance of water on that planet and the movie turns to shit for you because the actors ( who we paid good money to see act out their roles) didn't have their faces covered at all times? Very strange. This is not The Mandalorian, where him never taking off the helmet is a core element of the show ( Fremen do take off the masks when inside a structure) and only recently they kind of "admitted" that most of the time the Mandalorian is played by a stunt guy and Pedro Pascal is just providing the voice. Do you want the same for Dune?

I have no idea what "The Mandalorian" is.

I never stated that the Fremen should have their faces covered at all times, just when they're outside the sietch, in the desert. That's what Frank Herbert wrote, and Villeneuve claims he followed the book. But he forgot about this part and copied Lynch, who also got it wrong.

I have much more pressing concerns when it comes to elements of the book not being used yet - Other Memory being the biggest. That one is very central to the book and the universe and very important to some characters, Alia in particular, and Villeneuve didn't even lay the groundwork for it in the first movie. So either he's not planning to use it at all or he has a plan to introduce it in the second movie, either way it will be interesting to see what he does or doesn't with that element.

I don't recall Other Memory being important until Jessica undergoes the Water of Life ceremony to become a Reverend Mother. Of course he has to use it in the second movie, as it's part of the ceremony. It's also important for Alia, as she wakes to adult consciousness and Other Memory while she's still a fetus, and this affects how she grows and develops after her birth. It's why she takes the actions she does in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. It's critical to her character, so Villeneuve should introduce it in the 2nd movie if he's understood anything about the first three novels and the characters.

Still more accurate than the Jodorowsky version would have been.

True. But it could have been better.

He's all up in arms because at times the Fremen are not completely covered head to toe in the movie while in the desert and is taking a dump on Villeneuve for it because the book describes it otherwise. Also he's shitting on Villeneuve for copying ( in his opinion) Lynch scenes and designs - well, they have adapted the same same book so there's bound to be similarities.

1. Read my usertitle. What part of that makes you think I'm male?

2. In all the times I've criticized Dune, whether it's a movie or miniseries or the nuDune novels, I have criticized the directors, actors, or authors.

I DO NOT CRITICIZE THE FANS.

I would appreciate the same courtesy in return. After all, I'm sure that there are things I like that you don't, and if you stated you didn't like it and why, I might rebut your reasons, but I'm not going to get personal about it.

3. If you're going to insult me, at least be accurate.

I accused Villeneuve of copying Lynch's stillsuit design, which Lynch got wrong (they work the opposite to what was stated in the novel).

As for scenes, Villeneuve is making up scenes that were never in the novel, so obviously he's not copying them from anybody.

 

[fireproof78]

The point is adaptation is just a representaton of the story in a different form and it's not replacing the original. Each medium has positives and negatives and changes often have to be made because certain things won't work well in different mediums.

Indeed and each author or producer or director is going to approach a specific work differently too. If they wanted to just ape the work and not put their own touch to it then you can, but that is going to stand out. And if you're going to put your own touches to it then that's also going to stand out. And by and large you're not going to see the same level of attention to detail or love of the different touches that fans of a work will pay very close attention to in the telling.

That all said, I can still be grumpy about certain adaptations and how that influences audiences about the nature of their stories (notably Disney's The Hunchback of North Dame and Hercules, both changed from terrible tragedies into lighthearted adventures).

I mean, of course fans can have that reaction I'm just not going to take producers to task over such changes. And with those Disney is well know for taking grim and positively depressing tales and making them extremely light hearted, like Snow White or the Little Mermaid. Some are still quite grim though, though not as dark as the original telling, like Pinocchio.

But, they did popularize the "happily ever after trope" in those stories which is a fascinating tale in of itself.

 

[FPAlpha]

If you've really read my posts regarding Dune, it is by far NOT the "single issue" that derails the movie for me. It's just one of them.


I keep my blinds closed here to keep the worst of the heat out, and I live in Western Canada. It helps a bit with the heat, but would do nothing for water conservation.


I have no idea what "The Mandalorian" is.

I never stated that the Fremen should have their faces covered at all times, just when they're outside the sietch, in the desert. That's what Frank Herbert wrote, and Villeneuve claims he followed the book. But he forgot about this part and copied Lynch, who also got it wrong.


I don't recall Other Memory being important until Jessica undergoes the Water of Life ceremony to become a Reverend Mother. Of course he has to use it in the second movie, as it's part of the ceremony. It's also important for Alia, as she wakes to adult consciousness and Other Memory while she's still a fetus, and this affects how she grows and develops after her birth. It's why she takes the actions she does in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. It's critical to her character, so Villeneuve should introduce it in the 2nd movie if he's understood anything about the first three novels and the characters.


True. But it could have been better.


1. Read my usertitle. What part of that makes you think I'm male?

2. In all the times I've criticized Dune, whether it's a movie or miniseries or the nuDune novels, I have criticized the directors, actors, or authors.

I DO NOT CRITICIZE THE FANS.

I would appreciate the same courtesy in return. After all, I'm sure that there are things I like that you don't, and if you stated you didn't like it and why, I might rebut your reasons, but I'm not going to get personal about it.

3. If you're going to insult me, at least be accurate.

I accused Villeneuve of copying Lynch's stillsuit design, which Lynch got wrong (they work the opposite to what was stated in the novel).

As for scenes, Villeneuve is making up scenes that were never in the novel, so obviously he's not copying them from anybody.

I aplogize for assuming you're male - i didn't read your user info in enough detail to notice it. My bad.

This is the last thing for me to you on this matter - you are going up in arms on completely non-essential details of the novel and i don't care about such vanishingly small and unimportant details because books and movies are different mediums with different requirements and possibilities. The movie has not been made for hardcore fans alone, it is made to be seen by as many people as possible and for this purpose some things need to be done so the general audience ( those who haven't read the books and internalized them) can understand the broad scopes of the story that is told.

And even then people get confused - i watch several reaction channels and on one of them she reacted to Dune and even 2/3 into the movie, when Duncan fought the Sardauker in the corridor and died, she still was confused who was who and who the white armored guys were. So this is the general audience i was talking about and i don't really mind but it is also the reason why some things from such a deep and etailed book have to be simplified or adapted so "normal" people ( non fans of the book) can follow and understand what's happening on the screen.

It is inevitable that elements from the book need to be cut, the recent example of the banquet scene here is proof. It is a wonderful scene in the book, in the series it was well done but in the movie it would have taken too much time for too little benefit so they made a choice to cut it. Some are ok with it, some are not and that's fine but i still can't understand why you are so hellbent on this Fremen mask/outside issue that is not even an issue with me. Actors need to act and for that they use their face - can't do too much with just the eyes and voice.

So you do you - reject this wonderful, visually stunning, well acted and written ADAPTATION of a classic Science Fiction novel, that has influenced many who came after just because some people didn't wear masks when the book said they do.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I mean, of course fans can have that reaction I'm just not going to take producers to task over such changes. And with those Disney is well know for taking grim and positively depressing tales and making them extremely light hearted, like Snow White or the Little Mermaid. Some are still quite grim though, though not as dark as the original telling, like Pinocchio.

At the risk of going too off topic (we're still under the umbrella of adaptations, yeah, that's it!), you're absolutely right about all of the classic Grimm, Anderson, and other fairy tales and oddly those don't bother me as much (even if I go out of my way to point out the originals' dark qualities in certain situations). I might not be bothered because I grew up on those films and then read the tales, and now most of those films don't appeal to me anymore. I actually haven't read The Hunchback of Notre Dame so I have no reason to be protective of it, although that might because it's a single author with a direct purpose in mind with his tale.

However, I did grow up reading about Hercules (as well as all of the other Greek, Norse, Egyptian, and Roman myths) and I'm definitely protective of it. And that's with the full knowledge that all of those myth were constantly changing over the many years by many people through oral and written, well, adaptations.

There, I brought my point back to the main discussion!

But, they did popularize the "happily ever after trope" in those stories which is a fascinating tale in of itself.

That might be the source of some of my irritation. But, again, all of those original tales had tragic endings. So maybe I'm just fickle.

 

[Set Harth]

when Duncan fought the Sardauker in the corridor and died

At that point in the theater my buddy goes "We won't be seeing him again!"

 

[FPAlpha]

At that point in the theater my buddy goes "We won't be seeing him again!"

Whenever i hear someone say that i just really have to bite my tongue I wonder if Momoa knows that his character is amongst the most important in the whole series

 

[fireproof78]

At the risk of going too off topic (we're still under the umbrella of adaptations, yeah, that's it!), you're absolutely right about all of the classic Grimm, Anderson, and other fairy tales and oddly those don't bother me as much (even if I go out of my way to point out the originals' dark qualities in certain situations). I might not be bothered because I grew up on those films and then read the tales, and now most of those films don't appeal to me anymore. I actually haven't read The Hunchback of Notre Dame so I have no reason to be protective of it, although that might because it's a single author with a direct purpose in mind with his tale.

If you ever read that book it is quite grim. And wow what a gut punch. Honestly.

However, I did grow up reading about Hercules (as well as all of the other Greek, Norse, Egyptian, and Roman myths) and I'm definitely protective of it. And that's with the full knowledge that all of those myth were constantly changing over the many years by many people through oral and written, well, adaptations.

There, I brought my point back to the main discussion!

I personally have loved ancient mythologies, especially Greek and Egyptian, but starting to branch in to others, for a long time. But, Hercules is one that I am less protective of. One, the dude's a dick. Two, I like seeing the adaptation process of him moving from Greek (Heracles) to Roman (Hercules) and how that got shuffled across cultures. Like most superhero figures he takes on a life of his own in each telling.

Which is part of why I am not so harsh (anymore) on adaptations. I don't hold to a black and white perspective on art works because they're not made in a black and white space. Imagine someone taking the text we write here and then shouting about how we hate art because we support adaptations. It misses so much of the individual perspective by just taking it just as words.

I hold no ill will towards Villeneuve for his work on Dune. I have little regard for Lynch's version, for many reasons, and I still quite enjoy the Miniseries, despite it's length. But, ultimately, it's art and the artist is going to inform the process, and not the process informing the artist. And if I disagree with an adaptation then I'll probably just not watch it again, and hold nothing against the artist.

That's me though. Mileage, etc.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

If you ever read that book it is quite grim. And wow what a gut punch. Honestly.

I remember watching an animated adaptation of it years before the Disney film so I'm pretty aware of how gnarly things get. I wish I could remember what production that was. I remember Nickelodeon use to have an animated series that adopted a lot of the classic fairy tales (gods, I wish I could remember the name of that show!) but I don't know if that's where I saw it.

I personally have loved ancient mythologies, especially Greek and Egyptian, but starting to branch in to others, for a long time. But, Hercules is one that I am less protective of. One, the dude's a dick. Two, I like seeing the adaptation process of him moving from Greek (Heracles) to Roman (Hercules) and how that got shuffled across cultures. Like most superhero figures he takes on a life of his own in each telling.

Which is part of why I am not so harsh (anymore) on adaptations. I don't hold to a black and white perspective on art works because they're not made in a black and white space. Imagine someone taking the text we write here and then shouting about how we hate art because we support adaptations. It misses so much of the individual perspective by just taking it just as words.

I hold no ill will towards Villeneuve for his work on Dune. I have little regard for Lynch's version, for many reasons, and I still quite enjoy the Miniseries, despite it's length. But, ultimately, it's art and the artist is going to inform the process, and not the process informing the artist. And if I disagree with an adaptation then I'll probably just not watch it again, and hold nothing against the artist.

That's me though. Mileage, etc.

I don't have much more to add other to say I agree 1000%.

Including that Hercules is a dick. Hell, I think that's why I don't like the Disney version. Don't change him from being a dick, damnit! That's who he is.