Dumb and Bizarre Trek Novel Moments...

[Trent Roman]

Even a pattern of excellence can have exceptions. The question is, can you forgive them and move on?

Not when the 'exception' is the slaughter of countless billions of innocent lives he was sworn to protect, no. What's the point of a lifetime of heroism if, at the moment of the ultimate test, of greatest need, the result is this kind of abject failure? This was Picard's--and indeed the Federation's--moment to shine, the culmination of his most difficult arc, the point at which he should have overcome the insurmountable and produce his greatest victory--materially and personally--from his darkest hour. What do we get instead? Defeatism, obstructionism, infantilism. What is the character of the hero in a story when it is not the hero? Why, nothing at all. A waste of space, which is what Picard was here. Worse, since far from actively contributing to a solution, he proved to be an obstacle. This was a defining moment for Picard, as it was for the setting as a whole. And the definition of Picard that emerged was a sniveling, semi-psychotic buffoon. That's permanent damage, and it's a very good question whether the character can ever recover from that it and be respectable again, unless he finds a way to make up for his failures by saving the fallen retroactively somehow.

Maybe this is unexpected, but I agree. Still say there should be a digest form, "Captain Hernandez and the Saucermen from Erigol," but if for no other reason, its impact on subsequent stories just about dictates the read.

Yes indeed. I think I mentioned this in my review, but if Destiny had just been about Hernandez, excluding the 24th-century bits, it would have been one of the best Trek works out there. I suppose there would have been some displeasure that these great villains are sorted out by third party actors instead of the characters for whom the Borg are the antagonist--Picard, Janeway, etc.--but since that was the end result anyway, the point is moot.

Because of that, the ending almost had to be a Deus Ex Machina of sorts... I still don't really like the ending of Destiny, but it was just a by-product of the rest of the story that it seemed anti-climactic. There was really no other way for it to end. It was fitting, I just didn't find it very satisfying.

I call it a 'deus in machina'. The Caeliar were always present, and the rules of storytelling say you don't introduce a powerful new player unless they contribute to the dénouement somehow, so I was always expecting them to have a role in the finale. I just didn't think it would be so easy, and have so little to do with the rest of the story. Hernandez makes a speech, the Caeliar wave their wand, there's a brief moment of doubt when it seems like the Collective might pose a threat, and then--poof!--the Borg are gone. If only Titan had stumbled across the Caeliar a month earlier, this whole thing could have been ended in the opening days of the invasion.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Therin of Andor]

Though, unfortunately, at no point in Destiny does anyone shout
"...THE DARKNESS IS ALIVE!"

"JANEWAY IS THE DARKNESS!"

 

[Therin of Andor]

'Our heroes' proved their mettle. They were found lacking.
The borg broke them. It won. It didn't just kill them. It completely CRUSHED THEIR SPIRIT, TRULY DEFEATED THEM.

So? It's not every day an author gets a chance to do that kind of story, but still finish on a high. Certainly, such a story arc couldn't have been told in the parent TV series, or even a movie spin-off. Despite all the devastation in that trilogy, we are still left feeling that things will get better again, are already getting better.

Isn't it a bit like real life? Isn't a bit like a town getting destroyed by an earthquake (and all of its heroic police officers crushed when their station collapses before they could get out and help), or the tsunami of a few years ago wiping out whole island populations and tourists alike, or the fire/rescue crews lost in 9/11?

Heroes don't always get to win in real life. The format of episodic TV shows usually insists that they do.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

'Our heroes' proved their mettle. They were found lacking.
The borg broke them. It won. It didn't just kill them. It completely CRUSHED THEIR SPIRIT, TRULY DEFEATED THEM.

So? It's not every day an author gets a chance to do that kind of story, but still finish on a high. Certainly, such a story arc couldn't have been told in the parent TV series, or even a movie spin-off. Despite all the devastation in that trilogy, we are still left feeling that things will get better again, are already getting better.

Isn't it a bit like real life? Isn't a bit like a town getting destroyed by an earthquake (and all of its heroic police officers crushed when their station collapses before they could get out and help), or the tsunami of a few years ago wiping out whole island populations and tourists alike, or the fire/rescue crews lost in 9/11?

Heroes don't always get to win in real life. The format of episodic TV shows usually insists that they do.

Heroes may not always win. But 'heroes' don't give up. EVER.

It was not even required for Picard or the federation to win. But it was required to TRY and win, to TRY and succeed against insurmontable odds.
Picard&co gave up. In their mind they had already lost. Their passivity, their defeatism permeates the trilogy. The borg broke them completely, not only on a material level, but ON A SPIRITUAL LEVEL, TOO. THAT IS THEIR GREATEST FAILURE.

And the 'high' the trilogy finishes on is shallow and unconvincing, artificial.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

I call it a 'deus in machina'. The Caeliar were always present, and the rules of storytelling say you don't introduce a powerful new player unless they contribute to the dénouement somehow, so I was always expecting them to have a role in the finale. I just didn't think it would be so easy, and have so little to do with the rest of the story. Hernandez makes a speech, the Caeliar wave their wand, there's a brief moment of doubt when it seems like the Collective might pose a threat, and then--poof!--the Borg are gone. If only Titan had stumbled across the Caeliar a month earlier, this whole thing could have been ended in the opening days of the invasion.

Excellent points.

 

[JarodRussell]

'Our heroes' proved their mettle. They were found lacking.
The borg broke them. It won. It didn't just kill them. It completely CRUSHED THEIR SPIRIT, TRULY DEFEATED THEM.

So? It's not every day an author gets a chance to do that kind of story, but still finish on a high. Certainly, such a story arc couldn't have been told in the parent TV series, or even a movie spin-off. Despite all the devastation in that trilogy, we are still left feeling that things will get better again, are already getting better.

Isn't it a bit like real life? Isn't a bit like a town getting destroyed by an earthquake (and all of its heroic police officers crushed when their station collapses before they could get out and help), or the tsunami of a few years ago wiping out whole island populations and tourists alike, or the fire/rescue crews lost in 9/11?

Heroes don't always get to win in real life. The format of episodic TV shows usually insists that they do.

Heroes may not always win. But 'heroes' don't give up. EVER.

Yes, the thing is that you never lose when you give 100%. You truly lose when you give up. You can't say that any of the rescue crews lost on 9/11, because they fought hard even to their own deaths in order to save as many as possible.

 

[Therin of Andor]

You can't say that any of the rescue crews lost on 9/11, because they fought hard even to their own deaths in order to save as many as possible.

And I never got the feeling that Starfleet wasn't saving as many lives as possible in "Destiny". They'd just been horribly outnumbered and outgunned.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

You can't say that any of the rescue crews lost on 9/11, because they fought hard even to their own deaths in order to save as many as possible.

And I never got the feeling that Starfleet wasn't saving as many lives as possible in "Destiny". They'd just been horribly outnumbered and outgunned.

They were passive, defeatist, self-pitying, emasculated - Picard being a leading example.
They've given up trying to find ways to survive, to save the federation, to think outside the box. They were even refuting already existing options with a good chance of stopping or slowing down the borg - because 'it won't work, anyway', 'it's too dangerous'. They were only interested in dying, failing with 'dignity'.
The borg crushed their will, their spirit completely.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

More thoughts I had over this latest stage of the debate (still very interesting, everyone, thanks! ):

Everyone fails sometimes, because everyone (or everyone worth investing in as interesting) has limits. No limits...no interest. Ask the Q. The omnipotent life, the unbreakable man, the invincible spirit...it's ultimately hollow and, dare I say it, dull. . Everyone has moments where they can't face up to the situation, can't accept the scenario, everyone has moments where they despair. Picard saw his entire universe crashing down in flames around him- maybe it's just because my idea of a hero is a person not an ideal, but, gods, I could understand. If my entire world, everything I valued, was being torn callously to pieces and I was convinced it was hopeless...well.

If we're asking ourselves, did Picard fail this time, as a hero, as a Starfleet captain, as an officer, even as a person? Yes. I think we all pretty much agree. He failed. But I don't hold it against him or consider it harmful to his character. He isn't a cartoon character- he's a man. Men break. And Picard hasn't let us down before, which is, I think, very relevant. Time and time again, he's soldiered on past terrible pain and he's come through as the hero. He's a rock. But there will come a breaking point. Joined Trill Dax, Caeliar-human "hybrid" Hernandez, even xenophile Riker...they aren't rocks in quite the same way. They're sand. And sand can survive in this situation where the rock is finally shattered by the blow (if that makes any sense)?

Picard understands the sheer power of the Borg in a way only one other person featured in the trilogy can. The others are idealistic, believing they'll find a way, they won't let this be the end- this is a good thing, of course, and it's to Picard's detriment that he can't embrace the same worldview. But how can he? There's a thin line between idealism and self-delusion at times. Due to his connection with the Borg, Picard's being confronted with the knowledge that the Federation can't, reckoning in any conventional way, win. It's fact; he knows it. Ironically, his knowledge proves a weakness, and it's interesting to consider- to what extent is it in fact a self-fulfilling prophecy? Some of you are saying, the Borg already beat Picard- they broke him. Quite possibly, or did his own accurate knowledge of the true plight beat him? The others, free from the sheer weight of the hopelessness of their situation, can cast around for ideas, new angles- which is what they should be doing of course and what does eventually win (Picard's resistance to Dax's plan notwithstanding).

Remember Seven of Nine's "evacuate" plan? She was the same: it's hopeless. She and Picard "knew"- and so believed on some powerful level- it was all over, because they knew that realistically any hope of victory was foolishness. And in Picard's case, the weight of that knowledge crushed him and, yes, made him pretty much no real use whatsoever. And yet idealism and "we'll find a way!" still won the day, as Dax, Riker, Hernandez, etc, proved. And as we Trek fans would expect and applaud.

Thrawn mentions this trilogy pushed Trek's morality to its limits- I would say it did so by suggesting that the idealism Trek depends upon and which we all support has limits...yet it also overcame those limits and affirmed that, yes, those values still deliver. Idealism can cross over into..dare we even say it?- a form of ignorant delusion at times, at its extremes. Yet if it was in any way ignorant delusion to think the Borg could be stopped...well, they were. So there. And if Picard and Seven were the only ones not ignorant and deluded...they were still wrong. So there. Wow. That's really shocking territory we're moving into here. And (to me)a fascinating affirmation of Trek's core message of idealism that also hints at self-recognition of possible limits. That strikes me as intelligent story-telling. Our values and beliefs were- well, in my case- supported and reaffirmed by this trilogy (once again, idealism and a non-defeatist attitude came through and got results), but, like the Federation, it almost looked like they might fall. I see the trilogy as presenting Trek's core beliefs standing on the edge- the ultimate trial, mirroring the Federation's ultimate trial. In the end, those ideals, like the Federation, stared the abyss in the face...and survived. Not fully intact- it took a hit, a daring move- but it passed the test, and has the opportunity to come back stronger for it. That's why I love the trilogy so much. To me, it was Trek. The ultimate Trek.

As for fall-out on Picard's character: If Picard hadn't despaired and, yes, become pretty much useless, well....given his history with the Borg, his hopes for his family, etc- as other posters have outlined- well, maybe that would be heroism as some define it but it sure sounds boring to me. As it is, I've learnt something new about this character, which satisfies me- I've seen the limits of his tolerance. He can handle a lot, as we all know. But here we saw that we he can't face, the one thing that could destroy this great man (and it's hardly small is it? It was nothing short of apocalypse brought about by his worst foe- hardly a trivial failing).

If anything, it's good that "Destiny" undermined the "heroes invincible!" idea. No-one's invincible. Picard accepted that the Borg were invincible- he was wrong. But Picard himself and his Federation are no different. No-one is invincible, "good" or "bad". Was that not in part the point of the story- Hernandez even points out to the Caeliar that they need to change, because they're not invincible either ("you never thought 98% of your race would just be gone! How many more Erigols can you take before it's over?"). She points out to the gods, "you are not unbreakable. None of us are".

Which is why the Caeliar had to accept Hernandez's advice and make the step of reaching out with compassion to help the Borg. Strength through compassion, diversity, flexibility, idealism- not standing alone, because everyone will face a challenge they alone just can't beat. Picard's biggest weakness was always that he stood alone when he shouldn't have ("I should have done this years ago" in All Good Things).

 

[JarodRussell]

Does Q appear in the books? I think Q would have a major interest in watching Picard breaking down. And, as far as I see his character, help him not to break down because he does care a little about him.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Why am I even trying to defend three (excellent) chunky books against the criticisms of people who haven't even read them, and seemingly have no intention of reading them?

No, Q is not in them.

 

[JarodRussell]

Why am I even trying to defend three (excellent) chunky books against the criticisms of people who haven't even read them, and seemingly have no intention of reading them?

No, Q is not in them.

Well, I wasn't criticizing the books at all. I only said at one point that what I read in this thread doesn't make me want to read them. The rest of my posts in this thread are more about principles, like is it right to kill innocent Borg slaves or what is the difference between a hero and a loser, stuff you can argue about without having read the book.

 

[Sci]

But Picard's behaviour - defeatist and self-pitying - was endemic in the Federation. The Borg broke not only Picard's spirit, they squashed everyone's, the entire Federation's will to fight for what they beleive in.

Um. No. It didn't. The Federation continued fighting right up until the bitter end, and continued to do so in a manner it found moral.

The Borg DEFEATED the federation, crushed its spirit, its values - they just didn't kill everyone in it.

The Borg did not crush the Federation's spirit or its values.

It was not the federation's values that defeated the borg.

Yes, it was, because those Federation values -- as communicated to the Caeliar by Hernandez -- persuaded the Caeliar to intervene and end the Borg threat once and for all.

It was Hernandz's (the half divine being) and the Caeliar's (the gods of night) values and power.

Their power, sure. Their values? No. Caeliar values are fundamentally xenophobic, reactionary, and irresponsible; it was by persuading the Caeliar to adopt Federation values -- caring for others, taking responsibility for your actions and your fellow citizens, accepting that others are not "inferior" because they are not you -- that Hernandez liberated the Collective's drones, saved the Federation from the Borg, and saved the Caeliar from their own self-imposed stagnation.

 

[Christopher]

As for fall-out on Picard's character: If Picard hadn't despaired and, yes, become pretty much useless, well....given his history with the Borg, his hopes for his family, etc- as other posters have outlined- well, maybe that would be heroism as some define it but it sure sounds boring to me. As it is, I've learnt something new about this character, which satisfies me- I've seen the limits of his tolerance. He can handle a lot, as we all know. But here we saw that we he can't face, the one thing that could destroy this great man (and it's hardly small is it? It was nothing short of apocalypse brought about by his worst foe- hardly a trivial failing).

Again, a really excellent analysis.

I think of it this way: If your hero lets you down, you may lose faith in him. But if a friend or a family member lets you down, if they really matter to you, you forgive them and move on. Maybe Picard seems less heroic in the wake of this, but is that the only way to relate to him as a character? Is that the only way to value him?

 

[TerraUnam]

Caeliar Values? I like the Caeliar as characters due to the subtle way David Mack yanks the carpet out from under these "Gods" in the end. Yes they have power beyond imagination, but they have disconnected themselves from the universe. They depend for their very lives on an Omega Particle generator, which if it malfunctions could wipe out warp travel on an incredible scale. They even wilfully abandoned their ability to procreate. Gods? I don't know if that's God-like, but it is hubris in spades. Once David Mack lets you in on the true scale of their conceit, it's absolutely astounding and satisfying to behold.

Nitpick: Why let Axion anywhere near the Federation when their Omega Particle Generator is so incredibly dangerous? If they weren't needed for the plot they'd be a Hazard to Navigation.

 

[Thrawn]

Thrawn mentions this trilogy pushed Trek's morality to its limits- I would say it did so by suggesting that the idealism Trek depends upon and which we all support has limits...yet it also overcame those limits and affirmed that, yes, those values still deliver. Idealism can cross over into..dare we even say it?- a form of ignorant delusion at times, at its extremes. Yet if it was in any way ignorant delusion to think the Borg could be stopped...well, they were. So there. And if Picard and Seven were the only ones not ignorant and deluded...they were still wrong. So there. Wow. That's really shocking territory we're moving into here. And (to me)a fascinating affirmation of Trek's core message of idealism that also hints at self-recognition of possible limits. That strikes me as intelligent story-telling. Our values and beliefs were- well, in my case- supported and reaffirmed by this trilogy (once again, idealism and a non-defeatist attitude came through and got results), but, like the Federation, it almost looked like they might fall. I see the trilogy as presenting Trek's core beliefs standing on the edge- the ultimate trial, mirroring the Federation's ultimate trial. In the end, those ideals, like the Federation, stared the abyss in the face...and survived. Not fully intact- it took a hit, a daring move- but it passed the test, and has the opportunity to come back stronger for it. That's why I love the trilogy so much. To me, it was Trek. The ultimate Trek.

*snip*

Strength through compassion, diversity, flexibility, idealism- not standing alone, because everyone will face a challenge they alone just can't beat. Picard's biggest weakness was always that he stood alone when he shouldn't have ("I should have done this years ago" in All Good Things).

God this is an amazing post. Like seriously.

I teach high school in an inner city, and I'm really really good at it for someone only in their second year. I teach in a network of 18 charter schools, and this year my kids are going to get the highest test scores in my subject area (Geometry) in the history of the organization, by a fairly wide margin, if their practice test scores are any indication. But that record-breaking number is going to be 27-30% of my students passing the test. Not so impressive when you think of it that way, is it?

That is to say, I deal every day with an unsolvable problem, the scope of which is enough to daunt anyone. "Fixing education" may as well be wiping out the Borg. And in my position, there are Gods...not as omnipotent as the Caeliar perhaps, but I'm a teacher, and there are lawmakers and figureheads that have sweeping impacts far beyond where I sit.

The first paragraph I quoted up there, about the practically invisible line between conviction and self-delusion, and about how you don't even really know which side of the line you want to be on... you phrased it all perfectly. And it's weird. It's complicated, and hard to really think about, and it's something I deal with every day. "Intelligent storytelling" hell; it's the best philosophical examination I've ever read of what it means to be on the ragged edge of your beliefs and your abilities, against a circumstance you can't fix but have to anyway. Deeply unsettling, and powerfully affirming.

I don't mean to come off as ragingly self-centered; I realize we're talking about the work here and not me. I just mean this as an example of why this kind of storytelling is important. What's the point of having a moral code if you aren't willing to see it challenged, and sometimes fail? Isn't that what moral codes are for? Hasn't everyone had a principle they knew was right but eventually gave up on, only to see someone else succeed where they failed? That's not the end of the story; that's when your principle is reaffirmed and you go back to believing in it. Sometimes that's what you need to really understand how important it is.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Going away from the Destiny discussion a bit, and wanting to touch on "bizarre" moments in Trek Lit:

I think it was said already, but much of the New Frontier series always struck a jangled cord with me when I read it. Also, Before Dishonor. Woof.

 

[RonG]

More thoughts I had over this latest stage of the debate (still very interesting, everyone, thanks! ):

Everyone fails sometimes, because everyone (or everyone worth investing in as interesting) has limits. No limits...no interest. Ask the Q. The omnipotent life, the unbreakable man, the invincible spirit...it's ultimately hollow and, dare I say it, dull. . Everyone has moments where they can't face up to the situation, can't accept the scenario, everyone has moments where they despair. Picard saw his entire universe crashing down in flames around him- maybe it's just because my idea of a hero is a person not an ideal, but, gods, I could understand. If my entire world, everything I valued, was being torn callously to pieces and I was convinced it was hopeless...well.

If we're asking ourselves, did Picard fail this time, as a hero, as a Starfleet captain, as an officer, even as a person? Yes. I think we all pretty much agree. He failed. But I don't hold it against him or consider it harmful to his character. He isn't a cartoon character- he's a man. Men break. And Picard hasn't let us down before, which is, I think, very relevant. Time and time again, he's soldiered on past terrible pain and he's come through as the hero. He's a rock. But there will come a breaking point. Joined Trill Dax, Caeliar-human "hybrid" Hernandez, even xenophile Riker...they aren't rocks in quite the same way. They're sand. And sand can survive in this situation where the rock is finally shattered by the blow (if that makes any sense)?

Picard understands the sheer power of the Borg in a way only one other person featured in the trilogy can. The others are idealistic, believing they'll find a way, they won't let this be the end- this is a good thing, of course, and it's to Picard's detriment that he can't embrace the same worldview. But how can he? There's a thin line between idealism and self-delusion at times. Due to his connection with the Borg, Picard's being confronted with the knowledge that the Federation can't, reckoning in any conventional way, win. It's fact; he knows it. Ironically, his knowledge proves a weakness, and it's interesting to consider- to what extent is it in fact a self-fulfilling prophecy? Some of you are saying, the Borg already beat Picard- they broke him. Quite possibly, or did his own accurate knowledge of the true plight beat him? The others, free from the sheer weight of the hopelessness of their situation, can cast around for ideas, new angles- which is what they should be doing of course and what does eventually win (Picard's resistance to Dax's plan notwithstanding).

Remember Seven of Nine's "evacuate" plan? She was the same: it's hopeless. She and Picard "knew"- and so believed on some powerful level- it was all over, because they knew that realistically any hope of victory was foolishness. And in Picard's case, the weight of that knowledge crushed him and, yes, made him pretty much no real use whatsoever. And yet idealism and "we'll find a way!" still won the day, as Dax, Riker, Hernandez, etc, proved. And as we Trek fans would expect and applaud.

Thrawn mentions this trilogy pushed Trek's morality to its limits- I would say it did so by suggesting that the idealism Trek depends upon and which we all support has limits...yet it also overcame those limits and affirmed that, yes, those values still deliver. Idealism can cross over into..dare we even say it?- a form of ignorant delusion at times, at its extremes. Yet if it was in any way ignorant delusion to think the Borg could be stopped...well, they were. So there. And if Picard and Seven were the only ones not ignorant and deluded...they were still wrong. So there. Wow. That's really shocking territory we're moving into here. And (to me)a fascinating affirmation of Trek's core message of idealism that also hints at self-recognition of possible limits. That strikes me as intelligent story-telling. Our values and beliefs were- well, in my case- supported and reaffirmed by this trilogy (once again, idealism and a non-defeatist attitude came through and got results), but, like the Federation, it almost looked like they might fall. I see the trilogy as presenting Trek's core beliefs standing on the edge- the ultimate trial, mirroring the Federation's ultimate trial. In the end, those ideals, like the Federation, stared the abyss in the face...and survived. Not fully intact- it took a hit, a daring move- but it passed the test, and has the opportunity to come back stronger for it. That's why I love the trilogy so much. To me, it was Trek. The ultimate Trek.

As for fall-out on Picard's character: If Picard hadn't despaired and, yes, become pretty much useless, well....given his history with the Borg, his hopes for his family, etc- as other posters have outlined- well, maybe that would be heroism as some define it but it sure sounds boring to me. As it is, I've learnt something new about this character, which satisfies me- I've seen the limits of his tolerance. He can handle a lot, as we all know. But here we saw that we he can't face, the one thing that could destroy this great man (and it's hardly small is it? It was nothing short of apocalypse brought about by his worst foe- hardly a trivial failing).

If anything, it's good that "Destiny" undermined the "heroes invincible!" idea. No-one's invincible. Picard accepted that the Borg were invincible- he was wrong. But Picard himself and his Federation are no different. No-one is invincible, "good" or "bad". Was that not in part the point of the story- Hernandez even points out to the Caeliar that they need to change, because they're not invincible either ("you never thought 98% of your race would just be gone! How many more Erigols can you take before it's over?"). She points out to the gods, "you are not unbreakable. None of us are".

Which is why the Caeliar had to accept Hernandez's advice and make the step of reaching out with compassion to help the Borg. Strength through compassion, diversity, flexibility, idealism- not standing alone, because everyone will face a challenge they alone just can't beat. Picard's biggest weakness was always that he stood alone when he shouldn't have ("I should have done this years ago" in All Good Things).

a great, *GREAT* analysis IMO!

really, you just made me want to re-read this Trek masterpiece!

 

[flemm]

Why am I even trying to defend three (excellent) chunky books against the criticisms of people who haven't even read them, and seemingly have no intention of reading them?

No, Q is not in them.

JarodRussell has been up front about not having read the books and has not been attacking them as if he had. As for the rest of the discussion, some cogent criticisms have been made by people who have read the books, or so it would seem. I can't really confirm this, but then I can't confirm it for those with favorable opinions either.

There's really no need to try to frame this discussion as if there were two opposing factions: the valiant, knowledgable defenders of the published work and its vile, ill-informed detractors. There is room for a variety of nuanced reactions to these novels beyond "Destiny is good me likee" and "Destiny is bad me no likee." Or so I would like to believe

 

[Therin of Andor]

JarodRussell has been up front about not having read the books

Did I say he wasn't?

There's really no need to try to frame this discussion as if there were two opposing factions: the valiant, knowledgable defenders of the published work and its vile, ill-informed detractors.

I said all that in my attempt to say I didn't think I wanted to get involved?

Too bad the Janeway thread has closed.