Dumb and Bizarre Trek Novel Moments...

[Thrawn]

In the year prior to Destiny, Picard faced down the Borg three times. Every time, he beat them by the skin of his teeth, but then they came back again, giving him barely a respite. He became afraid that he'd never be free of them. And then, when he finally thought he'd achieved that freedom and decided to take a chance on starting a family, the Borg invaded en masse, a seemingly unstoppable force. And it broke him. It was just too much.

You can talk all you want about who Picard is, what he would or wouldn't do, and you'd be right in any normal circumstance. But we know that he changes, weakens, when he's faced with the Borg, because of the damage they did to his psyche. And the rash of Borg attacks in 2380-81 was just too much for him. It overwhelmed him, filled him with despair, and he lost his way. Yes, his behavior was out of character for Picard, but that was the point. He wasn't himself.

I personally thought it was a daring and unexpected direction to take his character, but absolutely necessary within the story. The invasion was so severe that there had to be someone who just went crazy and gave up, to give it the necessary weight. Having that person be Picard, generally the whole universe's most stable and heroic character, brought a real gravity to the whole thing.

People don't think in abstract numbers. Several billion dead is unlikely to mean much to a reader; with casualties like that, people's minds just turn off. I think Picard giving up lent a visceral knowledge of just how bad this was that nothing else in the trilogy did, making the moral victory at the end stronger.

 

[flemm]

Yes, his behavior was out of character for Picard, but that was the point. He wasn't himself.

I understand the reasoning behind Picard's portrayal, I just don't buy it. More importantly, it weakened the story, at least from my point of view. The DS9 example illustrates this: if Sisko is paralyzed by fear, doesn't ride through the valley of death and doesn't exhaust every option to face the enemy on his own terms without flinching, the sacrifice of angels does not have the same meaning.

Regardless of whether or not Picard might plausibly reach a breaking point at this juncture in his dealings with the Borg, his final liberation would have been more satisfying had he never given in to despair, had he not passively received his salvation.

To express the same idea in less metaphysical terms, the story would have benefited from characters like Picard, Worf and Geordi being actively involved in the outcome. That said, I still enjoyed the story. Mostly because of the one character whose actions and emotional journey were intergral to defeating the borg, however: Captain Hernandez.

 

[Christopher]

^But there, Sisko was the lone hero. Destiny wasn't a TNG story, it was a Trek-universe story, a full-on megacrossover. It was good, for the reasons Thrawn explained, for one of the main characters to be overcome by events; it would've been redundant for them all to react the same way. And it was an impressive and daring choice to have it be Picard. We expect Picard to be the great hero, the one who always saves the day. It was therefore startling for him to be the one to break down, to fall short of being a great cosmic champion and just be a fallible human being. Sure, not everyone likes to see their hero reveal feet of clay like that. But it wasn't what you'd expect, and it evoked a strong reaction, and that makes it a good storytelling choice.

 

[Thrawn]

^ I will say that, in hindsight, I wish there'd been a bit more of an arc following up on it. It seemed like he instantly sprung right back to being total heroic awesome guy, and I would've liked something about him realizing had failed in that moment at minimum, and possibly even some of the crew losing their faith in him. Not to repeat Before Dishonor or anything, but it did seem like it was a pretty epic breakdown, and for no one to really mention it afterwards was a little odd. They even tried to promote him one book later.

Unless there's a scene in there that I'm forgetting, which is possible; it's been a while. Either way, it wasn't emphasized much.

 

[flemm]

We expect Picard to be the great hero, the one who always saves the day. It was therefore startling for him to be the one to break down, to fall short of being a great cosmic champion and just be a fallible human being.

I don't think it's a choice between Picard breaking down completely and Picard saving the day. There's plenty of room for him to falter and still contribute. There's plenty of room for him to contribute without being the lone hero.

In any event, his passivity is not an isolated case. I think the story would have been strengthened by a greater balance between the contributions of gods and mortals to the borg's defeat. However, this comes down to creative choices and sujective judgements, so naturally there is plenty of room for disagreement.

 

[Sci]

I haven't read Destiny, but from what I gather:

1. The Borg were killing billions of innocent people.

2. The Federation government/Starfleet had access to a weapon that would stop them.

Negatory. They had access to a weapon that might possibly slow them down, but would almost certainly not stop them. A weapon that would also have destabilized the astropolitical scene if it were to survive the Borg Invasion and that was considered anathema to Federation values.

Yes, kill the Borg. Kill every last one of them. They're evil murdering enslaving bastards,

No, they're not. The Borg Queen and Collective are evil, murdering, enslaving bastards, but the actual drones themselves are victims as much as the Federation.

Now I haven't read Destiny yet, so this might all be incorrect.

It is.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think it's a choice between Picard breaking down completely and Picard saving the day. There's plenty of room for him to falter and still contribute. There's plenty of room for him to contribute without being the lone hero.

Yes, and that's what we'd expect and want. That's why it's such a bold choice to abandon the "hero" formula altogether and just portray Picard as a man. Sometimes even the best of us just fail. Sometimes we don't live up to the expectations that a fantasy hero would always manage to meet.

I felt disappointed in Picard myself when he failed to rise to the occasion this time. He did fall short of my expectations of him. But you know what? Sometimes people disappoint us. Sometimes people we can usually trust screw up and let us down. Even a pattern of excellence can have exceptions. The question is, can you forgive them and move on? Or will you decide that a single lapse overrides an entire illustrious career?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

But Picard's behaviour - defeatist and self-pitying - was endemic in the Federation. The Borg broke not only Picard's spirit, they squashed everyone's, the entire Federation's will to fight for what they beleive in.

The Borg DEFEATED the federation, crushed its spirit, its values - they just didn't kill everyone in it.

It was not the federation's values that defeated the borg.
It was Hernandz's (the half divine being) and the Caeliar's (the gods of night) values and power.
The Federation had nothing to do with the defeat of the borg - didn't convince the Caeliar to help and, of course, didn't help the Caeliar. The 'gods of night' just took pity on some defeated insects.

 

[flemm]

Yes, and that's what we'd expect and want. That's why it's such a bold choice to abandon the "hero" formula altogether and just portray Picard as a man. Sometimes even the best of us just fail. Sometimes we don't live up to the expectations that a fantasy hero would always manage to meet.

Doubtless part of the enjoyment of reading any heroic tale comes from the hero rising to the occasion and dealing with whatever seemingly insurmountable obstacle is in his path. We need to believe we can deal with life, even though we know sometimes we can't.

That said, I'm comfortable with turning the trope on its head and confronting a normally heroic character with abject failure. In this case, however, it's probably best for him to actually fail and be forced to deal with the consequences of that failure. Sometimes the obstacle simply cannot be overcome.

Destiny is neither of the above stories. It's a story where humanity fails and the gods intervene for their salvation. What allows this to work (at least to a certain degree) is the central role of the mediator, Captain Hernandez, who undergoes a passion of sorts in order to reconcile humanity with the higher power that alone can save them.

To reiterate, I enjoyed Destiny. Captain Hernandez's tale was beautifully crafted, and I can only compliment David Mack on the epic scope of his imagination as far as his handling of the borg are concerned.

I did find certain elements of the story less satisfying, however, notably that so many characters were mere accessories to the unfolding tale of the fall and redemption of the Caeliar. Where Picard specifically is concerned, it's not so much his failure, but rather his failure and gratuitous salvation that falls flat for me. Probably we have to overcome the obstacles in our path, or fail to do so. Probably there will be no supremely powerful aliens to save us.

Possibly there are times when victory hangs by such a flimsy thread that even when we have invested all our ingenuity and courage toward defeating a threat a miracle is still required for us to have a fighting chance. This to me is closer to where Sacrifice of Angels strikes the balance.

 

[JarodRussell]

The more I hear about this Destiny story, the less I want to read it.

 

[RonG]

The more I hear about this Destiny story, the less I want to read it.

IMO, it's your loss..

But of course, to each his own...

 

[Thrawn]

The more I hear about this Destiny story, the less I want to read it.

Make up your own mind. It's certainly a risky story, and the debate here makes sense to me on both sides, but for my money it's the best Trek ever exactly because it flirts with the edges of Trek's morality and explores how far it really goes. It's simultaneously the darkest and most hopeful thing Trek has ever produced. What you're not getting from this particular debate is *anything* about all the *rest* of the stories that aren't Picard. Trust me, this conversation is about maybe 10% of the overall narrative.

Even if you hate everything else, which you couldn't possibly, it's 100% worth reading for Hernandez's story.

 

[flemm]

What you're not getting from this particular debate is *anything* about all the *rest* of the stories that aren't Picard.

*snip*

Even if you hate everything else, which you couldn't possibly, it's 100% worth reading for Hernandez's story.

True for the first point, and agreed on the second.

Destiny has its flaws, but it's also pretty damn impressive in light of the sheer mass of continuity David Mack digests and interprets to resolve the borg storyline. He's not starting from scratch but rather weaving together and expanding upon an increasingly incoherent set of plot threads that had been wrought over the years by numerous other writers.

I consider it a virtuoso performance in the realm of tie-in fiction in spite what I perceive to be some less-than-satisfying elements.

 

[Myasishchev]

The more I hear about this Destiny story, the less I want to read it.

Make up your own mind. It's certainly a risky story, and the debate here makes sense to me on both sides, but for my money it's the best Trek ever exactly because it flirts with the edges of Trek's morality and explores how far it really goes. It's simultaneously the darkest and most hopeful thing Trek has ever produced. What you're not getting from this particular debate is *anything* about all the *rest* of the stories that aren't Picard. Trust me, this conversation is about maybe 10% of the overall narrative.

Even if you hate everything else, which you couldn't possibly, it's 100% worth reading for Hernandez's story.

Maybe this is unexpected, but I agree. Still say there should be a digest form, "Captain Hernandez and the Saucermen from Erigol," but if for no other reason, its impact on subsequent stories just about dictates the read.

Sort of like Crisis on Infinite Earths in that regard, another extremely flawed but nonetheless essential work. (Adding that, though its apples and oranges to a degree, Destiny is much better than Crisis.)

 

[Stevil2001]

Though, unfortunately, at no point in Destiny does anyone shout

"...THE DARKNESS IS ALIVE!"

 

[Dayton Ward]

"...WITH THE SOUND OF MUSIC!"

 

[Lonemagpie]

"...WITH THE SOUND OF MUSIC!"

That's General Chang's cameo spoilered.

 

[RonG]

But Picard's behaviour - defeatist and self-pitying - was endemic in the Federation. The Borg broke not only Picard's spirit, they squashed everyone's, the entire Federation's will to fight for what they beleive in.

The Borg DEFEATED the federation, crushed its spirit, its values - they just didn't kill everyone in it.

It was not the federation's values that defeated the borg.
It was Hernandz's (the half divine being) and the Caeliar's (the gods of night) values and power.
The Federation had nothing to do with the defeat of the borg - didn't convince the Caeliar to help and, of course, didn't help the Caeliar. The 'gods of night' just took pity on some defeated insects.

The Borg were always a threat to the UFP's existence. The battle was always *said* (throughout the various appearances of the Borg on TV and in the novels) to be against a "force of nature", and Destiny showed that to the greatest effect, with the UFP faced with its inevitable demise. Showing the "countdown" to that fate, was one of the strengths of the trilogy, IMO, by showing the various reactions and actions attempted.

As for the ultimate defeat of the Borg, I don't see it as Deus Ex Machina, as the Columbia crew and the Caeliar both played a part in the Borg's twisted creation, so their corecting that mistake was kind of events coming full circle.
Also, IIRC it was Hernandez's interaction with the 24c crews that paved the way to the final victory, so I wouldn't say that the UFP played nopart in defeating the Borg...

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The Borg were always a threat to the UFP's existence. The battle was always *said* (throughout the various appearances of the Borg on TV and in the novels) to be against a "force of nature", and Destiny showed that to the greatest effect, with the UFP faced with its inevitable demise. Showing the "countdown" to that fate, was one of the strengths of the trilogy, IMO, by showing the various reactions and actions attempted.

As for the ultimate defeat of the Borg, I don't see it as Deus Ex Machina, as the Columbia crew and the Caeliar both played a part in the Borg's twisted creation, so their corecting that mistake was kind of events coming full circle.
Also, IIRC it was Hernandez's interaction with the 24c crews that paved the way to the final victory, so I wouldn't say that the UFP played nopart in defeating the Borg...

Yes, in the best stories featuring them, the borg were described as a force of nature.
This is especially true about 'Destiny'.

The ultimate borg invasion. The Federation's darkest hour. This is when the human spark should burn brightest.

This is when our heroes prove their mettle.

And what do they exhibit?
Passivity. Defeatism. Dubious moral dillemas.

The borg already defeated them. What's the point in being creative? It won't work, anyway. Let's just pity ourselves and wait for death.
Instead of being proactive, Picard - the entire federation - slumbered, only trading transphasics with the borg when knowing they'll soon be useless, NOT EVEN TRYING to 'beat the odds' as so often in the past, being paralysed over false moral arguments.
THEY WERE DEFEATED. The borg only had to show up to break their spirit.

And there was NO redemption from this at the end of the trilogy - or anywhere else.
The federation never got up and dusted off, saying 'To hell with this! We may die today, but not before we make the borg undertand why it fears us! Not before we make history understand what we're made of! We'll fight with all our courage, with all our creativity, with all we have for our ideals, for our values, for our people! And, in the end, we may prevail yet again.'

What happened instead? The Caeliar, Hernandez one of them (she may have been human once, but now, by her own admission, she is a caeliar, a 'god of night', far above 'mere mortals') stopped the borg - with caeliar values and caeliar might.
Neither the federation nor its values played any part in this. Picard and the rest were only passive receptacles for the Caeliar's benevolence.

'Our heroes' proved their mettle. They were found lacking.
The borg broke them. It won. It didn't just kill them. It completely CRUSHED THEIR SPIRIT, TRULY DEFEATED THEM.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

The Borg were always a threat to the UFP's existence. The battle was always *said* (throughout the various appearances of the Borg on TV and in the novels) to be against a "force of nature", and Destiny showed that to the greatest effect, with the UFP faced with its inevitable demise. Showing the "countdown" to that fate, was one of the strengths of the trilogy, IMO, by showing the various reactions and actions attempted.

As for the ultimate defeat of the Borg, I don't see it as Deus Ex Machina, as the Columbia crew and the Caeliar both played a part in the Borg's twisted creation, so their corecting that mistake was kind of events coming full circle.
Also, IIRC it was Hernandez's interaction with the 24c crews that paved the way to the final victory, so I wouldn't say that the UFP played nopart in defeating the Borg...

A force of nature? Absolutely. That's what I'd call SEVEN THOUSAND ships tearing through your fleet without even bothering to fire...

Because of that, the ending almost had to be a Deus Ex Machina of sorts, because there was no other way for the Borg to be defeated. Eventually the Borg would adapt to the transphasic torpedoes, and even if someone used the thalaron weapon (as I believe someone would eventually do) it would be a temporary stopgap at best.

In fact, it was a Deus Ex Machina (God from the Machine) because the Caeliar 'Gods of Night' were technically made of tiny machines operating at the atomic level and the Borg were the twisted cybernetic offshoot of those 'Gods'...Gods from Machines and Machines from Gods...

I also agree with what you said about the Columbia and the Caeliar role in the Borg's creation...the conclusion didn't come from outside the story, it wasn't totally unexpected that the Caeliar would fix the Borg problem.

I still don't really like the ending of Destiny, but it was just a by-product of the rest of the story that it seemed anti-climactic. There was really no other way for it to end. It was fitting, I just didn't find it very satisfying.