It felt like it.
Spoilers DSC Starships and Technology - Season Two Thread
- Thread starter Mark_Nguyen
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I don't see any picture posts of the new D7, so I grabbed one.
This is how I picture the uprated Klingon ships from some of the novels
It's weird to see you questioning inconsistencies rather than rationalizing them.
Weird, but welcome.
Oh, there's still time...
I'd actually be happy with them dropping DSC right here and now and going straight for the spinoffs. But odds are that we'll get a S3, which will then decisively answer this very obvious question. Either we do hear that the crystal finally burned out (this logically being more a function of time passing than of possible use, since the crystal was supposed to burst from the constant charging), or then we learn that Burnham continues with Angelic antics through the season, this requiring a comment of some sort, but not a convoluted one.
At this point, seeing inconsistencies requires a bit of effort, as the subject matter is so foggy to begin with. The heroes sat down once before engaging in an about hour-long project to put together gear they knew little about beforehand; it's not as if they even covered all the questions yet, let alone offered any correct answers.
Timo Saloniemi
I'd actually be happy with them dropping DSC right here and now and going straight for the spinoffs. But odds are that we'll get a S3, which will then decisively answer this very obvious question. Either we do hear that the crystal finally burned out (this logically being more a function of time passing than of possible use, since the crystal was supposed to burst from the constant charging), or then we learn that Burnham continues with Angelic antics through the season, this requiring a comment of some sort, but not a convoluted one.
At this point, seeing inconsistencies requires a bit of effort, as the subject matter is so foggy to begin with. The heroes sat down once before engaging in an about hour-long project to put together gear they knew little about beforehand; it's not as if they even covered all the questions yet, let alone offered any correct answers.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, there was that first round of red signals perceived from Sol to Qo'noS as being simultaneously received...or am I misunderstanding the situation?
I thought we were looking at two waves, one to get Starfleet's attention and get Pike on the case, the second wave to get Discovery going from points A to E.
I thought we were looking at two waves, one to get Starfleet's attention and get Pike on the case, the second wave to get Discovery going from points A to E.
I haven't gone back to the first episodes to see how I got the impression, but I always had the feeling that it was the same initial group of seven signals reappearing one by one, and not new signals. It might not have even been from the episodes, but just the pre-release publicity that the ship would be tracking down "the seven signals," so it didn't occur to me that the New Eden signal was number eight.
I think the signals weren't truly simultaneous, just very closely sequenced in time such that it can't be considered a natural signal.
I think they were, that the suit blips through a certain stardate so all of Michael's jumps were initially perceived simultaneously.
The best we can say here is that the evidence... Comes within a broad range.
Let's treat the Red Things as two sets for convenience.
A1 though A7:These first signs appear only briefly, too briefly for Connolly to even get a fix on their location. He still manages to draw a map showing the dots spanning the entire galaxy, or what is referred to as 30,000 lightyears. Spock gets a premonition of this map (including its associated scale bars and whatnot), by means we still have no real clue on.
B1: This is the asteroid with the Hiawatha on it. It's stated to be the only one close enough to be accessed without spore drive, and everybody talks about it as if it were the same as A1, or at least makes no reference to it being in a different spot.
B2: This is Terralysium. It's more than 30,000 ly away, but since it's so difficult to get a fix, the actual 50,000 may have been mistaken for 30,000 originally. This isn't satisfactory, though, unless we assume A1/B1 was the very other end of this extreme distance among all the seven. Jacob refers to a signal having appeared "the other day", which may refer to A2, meaning A2 is the same spot as B2. Then again, Jacob is encountered after at least one night has passed.
B3: This is Kaminar. It's impossible for this to be distinguishable from A1 on the big map - the two must overlap at that scale. And there isn't the slightest hint of A3 having appeared in the skies of Kaminar prior to B3 appearing - surely Jacob's statement suggests it would be a visually impressive thing, yet there's no Jacob-equivalent on Kaminar.
B4: This is Boreth. Again it must be indistinguishable from A1 graphically - Klingons by definition are nearby, even if the heroes arrive by spore jump. And surely Klingons would raise literal holy hell if A4 appeared over Boreth previously.
B5: This is Xahea. Again the same as A1 on that map. And again no hint that the all-seeing Queen missed A5 originally, never mind whether she blinked on those fancy horizontal lids of hers or not.
B6: This is the battle site in the middle of nowhere. Again the same as A1 on that map. And if our heroes really thought the A set was the same as the B set, they would have started making noise about it at 4 or 5 already, and Burnham would immediately know she had to create a sign at 6.
B7: This is Terralysium again. So absolutely the same as B2, even accounting for a bit of galactic drift. But not necessarily the same as A2, as said. OTOH, sending a signal to Spock by igniting a red flare at Terralysium would be a piss-poor idea if the heroes could not trust their timing 100% - else Spock would mistake B7 for B2 or perhaps A2.
So only one absolute confirmation that A and B overlap for any specific location, namely A1 being the same as B1 (although B2 also is B7). Lots of evidence against specific As and Bs overlapping. The general problem of the A set being scattershot across the galaxy but the heroes only ever visiting two distinct locations, the UFP neighborhood and Terralysium, while going through B.
And no bloody idea who ignited the A set of signs in the first place, and why! Gabrielle Burnham swears it wasn't her. Michael Burnham only does the B set on-camera, and we get no dialogue or rationale for her having done the A set off-camera. And although we could assume she would fumble with the suit originally, and light up the A set wholly by mistake, hitting six completely wrong targets before reaching the Hiawatha where she'd then have to do it twice, we get no dialogue or visual indication of this fumble.
Heck, we don't even know what a Red Sign looks like, since we never see one. Except for B7, and that's the ultimate letdown, a teeny weeny glow that even the Argus Array probably wouldn't spot if staring at the battle site.
So much if not most of the story of the Red Signs remains untold. What or who wrecked the Enterprise on her quest to reach A1 and why? Is there any significance to the five or six locations (A3 or perhaps A2 through A7) that we have not visited yet? Does the suit still work, and how many of those were ultimately built? Why did Gabrielle Burnham both take off in a suit and die in the hands of Klingons? Why did B3 remain open and belch out the future probe, and did any of the others likewise remain open, and did they deliver anything nasty to the 2250s?
Starfleet may do wisely to keep this under wraps, but this also means having to deal with it somehow, under those wraps. The writers, OTOH... Many if not most of the questions above are the result of them screwing up, the later ones not understanding or minding what the earlier ones had written. Will there be any fixing, now that DSC has at least briefly entered full fixing mode for fixing's sake? Or will there be "enduring mystery", for the heck of it?
Timo Saloniemi
Let's treat the Red Things as two sets for convenience.
A1 though A7:These first signs appear only briefly, too briefly for Connolly to even get a fix on their location. He still manages to draw a map showing the dots spanning the entire galaxy, or what is referred to as 30,000 lightyears. Spock gets a premonition of this map (including its associated scale bars and whatnot), by means we still have no real clue on.
B1: This is the asteroid with the Hiawatha on it. It's stated to be the only one close enough to be accessed without spore drive, and everybody talks about it as if it were the same as A1, or at least makes no reference to it being in a different spot.
B2: This is Terralysium. It's more than 30,000 ly away, but since it's so difficult to get a fix, the actual 50,000 may have been mistaken for 30,000 originally. This isn't satisfactory, though, unless we assume A1/B1 was the very other end of this extreme distance among all the seven. Jacob refers to a signal having appeared "the other day", which may refer to A2, meaning A2 is the same spot as B2. Then again, Jacob is encountered after at least one night has passed.
B3: This is Kaminar. It's impossible for this to be distinguishable from A1 on the big map - the two must overlap at that scale. And there isn't the slightest hint of A3 having appeared in the skies of Kaminar prior to B3 appearing - surely Jacob's statement suggests it would be a visually impressive thing, yet there's no Jacob-equivalent on Kaminar.
B4: This is Boreth. Again it must be indistinguishable from A1 graphically - Klingons by definition are nearby, even if the heroes arrive by spore jump. And surely Klingons would raise literal holy hell if A4 appeared over Boreth previously.
B5: This is Xahea. Again the same as A1 on that map. And again no hint that the all-seeing Queen missed A5 originally, never mind whether she blinked on those fancy horizontal lids of hers or not.
B6: This is the battle site in the middle of nowhere. Again the same as A1 on that map. And if our heroes really thought the A set was the same as the B set, they would have started making noise about it at 4 or 5 already, and Burnham would immediately know she had to create a sign at 6.
B7: This is Terralysium again. So absolutely the same as B2, even accounting for a bit of galactic drift. But not necessarily the same as A2, as said. OTOH, sending a signal to Spock by igniting a red flare at Terralysium would be a piss-poor idea if the heroes could not trust their timing 100% - else Spock would mistake B7 for B2 or perhaps A2.
So only one absolute confirmation that A and B overlap for any specific location, namely A1 being the same as B1 (although B2 also is B7). Lots of evidence against specific As and Bs overlapping. The general problem of the A set being scattershot across the galaxy but the heroes only ever visiting two distinct locations, the UFP neighborhood and Terralysium, while going through B.
And no bloody idea who ignited the A set of signs in the first place, and why! Gabrielle Burnham swears it wasn't her. Michael Burnham only does the B set on-camera, and we get no dialogue or rationale for her having done the A set off-camera. And although we could assume she would fumble with the suit originally, and light up the A set wholly by mistake, hitting six completely wrong targets before reaching the Hiawatha where she'd then have to do it twice, we get no dialogue or visual indication of this fumble.
Heck, we don't even know what a Red Sign looks like, since we never see one. Except for B7, and that's the ultimate letdown, a teeny weeny glow that even the Argus Array probably wouldn't spot if staring at the battle site.
So much if not most of the story of the Red Signs remains untold. What or who wrecked the Enterprise on her quest to reach A1 and why? Is there any significance to the five or six locations (A3 or perhaps A2 through A7) that we have not visited yet? Does the suit still work, and how many of those were ultimately built? Why did Gabrielle Burnham both take off in a suit and die in the hands of Klingons? Why did B3 remain open and belch out the future probe, and did any of the others likewise remain open, and did they deliver anything nasty to the 2250s?
Starfleet may do wisely to keep this under wraps, but this also means having to deal with it somehow, under those wraps. The writers, OTOH... Many if not most of the questions above are the result of them screwing up, the later ones not understanding or minding what the earlier ones had written. Will there be any fixing, now that DSC has at least briefly entered full fixing mode for fixing's sake? Or will there be "enduring mystery", for the heck of it?
Timo Saloniemi
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Thank you for putting this into words. I've been struggling to communicate why this doesn't add up and people keep telling me it does! But Set A and and Set B are clearly distinct temporally (and possibly effectively as well - the B set doesn't seem like it would fry all the Enterprise systems).
Well, it's a cool idea. But probably not something she would wish to advertise, to Pike or even to Spock (who would perhaps figure it out later on, though). Perhaps a dirty secret to be discussed in the third season?
So far, it doesn't look as if Burnham Jr. ever did much, besides setting up the Signals. She may have been active on Kaminar, or then the Ba'ul shut down their network on their own. If the latter, the disrupting of the Enterprise systems would be all the more amazing. If the former, though, it may be the very same button she pressed both times...
Timo Saloniemi
So far, it doesn't look as if Burnham Jr. ever did much, besides setting up the Signals. She may have been active on Kaminar, or then the Ba'ul shut down their network on their own. If the latter, the disrupting of the Enterprise systems would be all the more amazing. If the former, though, it may be the very same button she pressed both times...
Timo Saloniemi
I gather so. But the DSC universe isn't exactly devoid of means to make contact between different times and different spaces. A big part of Angel Suit operations involved personal errands, and Burnham could spend most of S3 doing those, in treknological terms (dramatic terms being the business of that other forum, yes).
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Isn't the time Crystal burnt out from the 930 year jump?
Why would it be? It was said to burn out as time passed, not from strain - the reason for failure was Po's gizmo that kept constantly pumping power into the crystal until it burst, or so Reno said, and Po nodded enthusiastically. The crystal would go in X hours regardless of what Burnham did with it.
But Reno obviously was wrong there, and so was Po, as Burnham was able to do more than half a dozen extra jumps, then jump across centuries, and then ignite a Red Sign for his brother, in the present rather than at that future destination.
Only the last bit is at odds with Reno's premise, though. And Burnham may have achieved that after burning out the crystal. Say, she may have gone to Boreth to pick up another one...
...Which would be a wise use of the stealth and penetration abilities of the Angel Suit in any case, sort of like asking the three-wish genie for three more wishes every third wish.
Timo Saloniemi
But Reno obviously was wrong there, and so was Po, as Burnham was able to do more than half a dozen extra jumps, then jump across centuries, and then ignite a Red Sign for his brother, in the present rather than at that future destination.
Only the last bit is at odds with Reno's premise, though. And Burnham may have achieved that after burning out the crystal. Say, she may have gone to Boreth to pick up another one...
...Which would be a wise use of the stealth and penetration abilities of the Angel Suit in any case, sort of like asking the three-wish genie for three more wishes every third wish.
Timo Saloniemi
Maybe the suit's energy consumption is dependent on how far in time you travel (Temporal Directionally Back or Forewards neutral)
The further from current time, the more significant of an energy drain you incur on the suits energy capabilities?
The further from current time, the more significant of an energy drain you incur on the suits energy capabilities?
Not seeing any evidence that Burnham took another time crystal.
maybe S4 E1 will address if the time suit still functions.
maybe S4 E1 will address if the time suit still functions.
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