DS9 = WORST Star Trek Series EVER
- Thread starter Tidus79001
- Start date
Be prepared for the wall of text:
I have to agree with the sentiment of this thread. I enjoy pretty much all things Star Trek and up until recently was the only series I hadn't seen (barring Enterprise which I tried and just could not watch). I enjoyed the show even though the quality was very uneven and then something changed. When the show started confusing respecting a religion for embracing magical thinking, prophesy, and irrationality.
I loved that Sisko always kind of half-winked at being "The Prophet" and it was a great secular take on encountering a mostly theocratic people. Star Trek has always been a great show that while not atheistic is very secular and drew a pretty distinct line about the dangerousness of supernatural thinking and fundamentalist thinking. The Episode that basically forced me to quit watching was "Rapture" SE05E10 where Sisko's visions and his place as a prophet are shown to be correct. By the end of this episode Sisko is willing to abandon his family, his friends, and his duty for his new role as prophet. His fervor by the end reminded me of a suicide bomber's determination and irrationality. This episode is a culmination of several episodes and things that bother me about this series.
What are we supposed to think when shown that the so much of the Bejoran religion is true or at least validated. Is their religion the only true one or is every religion that a species holds throughout the galaxy true. I'm not saying that the show has to be anti-religious it is just that the Star Trek I grew up to love and adore usually took a more secular and scientific approach to beliefs while being respectful. Just replace the Bajoran religion in the show with any from earth and then replay the show exactly the same and it becomes fairly insulting.
I know Star Trek has always had visions, and psychic phenomenon, but very rarely did it outright imply that a given belief system was true and was in fact that a belief system relying on FAITH. The thing that scares me about DS9 is it shows a religion as being true, its prophesies as being valid, and that a theocratic society is relatively benign and could make it into the Federation of Planets. In pretty much all other Star Trek incarnations Theocratic Societies that the various crews come into contact with are the source of conflict on DS9 it shows them as just a good spiritual society which for me at least is a dangerous proposition.
The more I think about the Bajorans the more they frighten me as much as the Cardassians do. They are a society with no separation of Church and State, where the leading Religious Zealot/Leader can also be the leader of the planet, and race that could so readily return to horrible ways just because a "So-called prophet" told them to SE04E16 the Ascension. Not only that but the shows Bajoran/Cardassian conflict as an allegory about terrorism or displaced peoples was completely simplistic. I know this will get a lot of ire but Babylon 5's conflict of the Centauri and the Narn was handled with so much more nuance and managed to respect spiritualism while not giving reason to believe any one was more valid than the next.
Sorry this is such a long post but I wanted to like DS9 so much and it simply disappointed me as a Star Trek series. With its endorsements of magical thinking, lack of critical thinking, and simplistic views on complex situations I just couldn't enjoy this like the other Next Generation series.
-Justin
I have to agree with the sentiment of this thread. I enjoy pretty much all things Star Trek and up until recently was the only series I hadn't seen (barring Enterprise which I tried and just could not watch). I enjoyed the show even though the quality was very uneven and then something changed. When the show started confusing respecting a religion for embracing magical thinking, prophesy, and irrationality.
I loved that Sisko always kind of half-winked at being "The Prophet" and it was a great secular take on encountering a mostly theocratic people. Star Trek has always been a great show that while not atheistic is very secular and drew a pretty distinct line about the dangerousness of supernatural thinking and fundamentalist thinking. The Episode that basically forced me to quit watching was "Rapture" SE05E10 where Sisko's visions and his place as a prophet are shown to be correct. By the end of this episode Sisko is willing to abandon his family, his friends, and his duty for his new role as prophet. His fervor by the end reminded me of a suicide bomber's determination and irrationality. This episode is a culmination of several episodes and things that bother me about this series.
What are we supposed to think when shown that the so much of the Bejoran religion is true or at least validated. Is their religion the only true one or is every religion that a species holds throughout the galaxy true. I'm not saying that the show has to be anti-religious it is just that the Star Trek I grew up to love and adore usually took a more secular and scientific approach to beliefs while being respectful. Just replace the Bajoran religion in the show with any from earth and then replay the show exactly the same and it becomes fairly insulting.
I know Star Trek has always had visions, and psychic phenomenon, but very rarely did it outright imply that a given belief system was true and was in fact that a belief system relying on FAITH. The thing that scares me about DS9 is it shows a religion as being true, its prophesies as being valid, and that a theocratic society is relatively benign and could make it into the Federation of Planets. In pretty much all other Star Trek incarnations Theocratic Societies that the various crews come into contact with are the source of conflict on DS9 it shows them as just a good spiritual society which for me at least is a dangerous proposition.
The more I think about the Bajorans the more they frighten me as much as the Cardassians do. They are a society with no separation of Church and State, where the leading Religious Zealot/Leader can also be the leader of the planet, and race that could so readily return to horrible ways just because a "So-called prophet" told them to SE04E16 the Ascension. Not only that but the shows Bajoran/Cardassian conflict as an allegory about terrorism or displaced peoples was completely simplistic. I know this will get a lot of ire but Babylon 5's conflict of the Centauri and the Narn was handled with so much more nuance and managed to respect spiritualism while not giving reason to believe any one was more valid than the next.
Sorry this is such a long post but I wanted to like DS9 so much and it simply disappointed me as a Star Trek series. With its endorsements of magical thinking, lack of critical thinking, and simplistic views on complex situations I just couldn't enjoy this like the other Next Generation series.
-Justin
Haters Gonna Hate.....Move Along Home people, nothing to see here
I am at a lost where you see DS9 endorsing Magical Thinking? From the very beginning, we are shown the Prophets (Sisko is the Emissary, not a Prophet, the Prophets are the Worm Hole Aliens) are merely Aliens who live in all points of time at once, non-linear time line. The reason they know the future is because all points of time are their present, and Sisko knows this. When he accepts being the Emissary, it is based upon this basic understanding.
There is no endorsement of the Supernatural
There is no endorsement of the Supernatural
Not the best way to start out your post considering this is a troll thread.
A suicide bomber blows up himself and others based on cultural and religious hatreds and the unsubstantiated belief that they'll be rewarded for it in some form of afterlife. Sisko was seeing visions of the future, all of which were coming true, and he wanted to see those visions out because he wanted to know what actions he needed to take to safeguard Bajor. Later in the season it is shown that his advice for Bajor not to join the Federation was the correct course of action.
There is no parallel between Sisko and a suicide bomber.
That it's a big universe and anything is possible?
Neither. You're applying binary logic to extremely complex questions.
The Bajoran religion doesn't rely on faith. The Prophets are real beings that exist outside of time, the Celestial Temple is a real place they can visit, the orbs are real object with incredible powers, and the visions and prophesies are all based on the Prophet's ability to know what comes next. Faith is what's required when you have no evidence, but the Bajorans have plenty of evidence.
You appear to view religion as being intrinsically dangerous. Religion can be dangerous, it's true, but just because one, or some, or even most religions are dangerous doesn't mean that they all are. Once again, binary logic.
I dislike the Catholic church, but I don't dislike it because it's a religion, I dislike it because it says stupid things and ruins countless lives. It discriminates based on gender and sexuality, it spreads misinformation about horrific diseases, it covers up the crimes of those in its order. I have reasons to dislike the Catholic church, and I have reasons to dislike other Christian religions, and I have reasons to dislike elements of Judaism and Islam. But eastern religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism... I don't know enough about them to judge them, and I refuse to automatically jump to the conclusion that they're dangerous purely because they're religions.
The Bajoran religion isn't intrinsically dangerous. Judge the religion by its actions, not on the fact that it is a religion.
Which the show showed to be a bad thing and it was undone.
Which the show showed to be a bad thing and it was undone.
The Cardassians were originally space Nazis, things don't get much more simplistic than that.
When Q warned Picard about the Borg in his own unique style, was that TNG endorsing magical thinking?
And you could stand to learn not to instantly dismiss the arguments of those that disagree with you.
It's a bit Haters Gonna Hate to think that DS9 insisted that Bajoran religion was true because we saw the Prophets.
What it told us (and this is why DS9 is Trek to it's utter core, so read well Haters) is that both versions were considered right and true depending on point of view, and that there was no discrimination. See what it did there? Ah, smart....
To most people, the wormhole-aliens were just that: aliens. A new form of life. They had an interest in Bajor, and showed themselves to the Bajorans. The Bajorans saw them as Gods. Others didn't. Most respected that viewpoint, others (like Cardasians) ridiculed it. Sisko, even though he respected the Bajorans' viewpoint, did not agree with it at first.
After a while though, he changed his opinion, because he experienced new things and had several encounters with the wormhole-aliens/Prophets. And last I checked, changing your mind was allowed. Freedom of thought and stuff like that, which people seem to value.
It's a bit narrowminded to say that DS9 claimed a religion to be the one true on in the galaxy.
And in all honoustly, we as Trek-fans like to think that know and understand the social aspects of Star Trek, and might even reason along those lines; meaning we respect others and their opinions, even if we don't agree with them.
So coming into the section of the forum, and starting a topic about how DS9 sucks in your opinion, shows that you've kinda missed the entire frickin' concept of Star Trek in general: respect for others, their way of life and how they choose to life it. If you have a different opinion, then good for you. There's even nothing wrong with stating your opinion. But honoustly, a DS9 Sucks topic in the DS9 section..... how incredibly mature.....
What it told us (and this is why DS9 is Trek to it's utter core, so read well Haters) is that both versions were considered right and true depending on point of view, and that there was no discrimination. See what it did there? Ah, smart....
To most people, the wormhole-aliens were just that: aliens. A new form of life. They had an interest in Bajor, and showed themselves to the Bajorans. The Bajorans saw them as Gods. Others didn't. Most respected that viewpoint, others (like Cardasians) ridiculed it. Sisko, even though he respected the Bajorans' viewpoint, did not agree with it at first.
After a while though, he changed his opinion, because he experienced new things and had several encounters with the wormhole-aliens/Prophets. And last I checked, changing your mind was allowed. Freedom of thought and stuff like that, which people seem to value.
It's a bit narrowminded to say that DS9 claimed a religion to be the one true on in the galaxy.
And in all honoustly, we as Trek-fans like to think that know and understand the social aspects of Star Trek, and might even reason along those lines; meaning we respect others and their opinions, even if we don't agree with them.
So coming into the section of the forum, and starting a topic about how DS9 sucks in your opinion, shows that you've kinda missed the entire frickin' concept of Star Trek in general: respect for others, their way of life and how they choose to life it. If you have a different opinion, then good for you. There's even nothing wrong with stating your opinion. But honoustly, a DS9 Sucks topic in the DS9 section..... how incredibly mature.....
This is a false dichotomy.
Featuring and endorsing are two different things. If you think DS9 presented complex situations simplistically, particularly more so than the other series, I suggest you could benefit from watching it again, preferably with a less bigoted attitude.
If you want to get picky, Star Trek abounds with "simplistic thinking." Or do we yearn for the moral complexities of "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" or a ton of Voyager episodes whose titles I'm blanking on.
That sequence does fail one of the criteria for a Deus Ex Machina, the fact that in the very first episode of the series the Wormhole Aliens showed the ability to influence ships traversing the Wormhole. They also showed the ability to move ships through time in "Ascension" I believe.
It's not like this ability appeared out of nowhere.
^ And the Prophets say they plan to exact a penance for destroying the Jem'Hadar ships, presumably referring to the events of "The Reckoning".
While it's hard to see sometimes, the Prophets, while powerful, are never shown (in my opinion) to be just.
Furthermore, we see a wide spectrum of Bajoran believers on DS9. We see everything from stable, open-minded people (like Vedek Bareil, who basically says the whole science vs. religion battle is a false dichotomy) to total fanatics (like Akorem Laan or Kai Winn), and everyday people in between like Kira who have a mix of good and bad.
I guess the person who just posted in this thread carries an attitude so hateful towards religion that it's no wonder that the show that portrayed faith and religion the most accurately and with the most diversity, instead of sweeping it under the rug as though no good or smart person can believe (talk about being simplistic!) would piss him off.
Furthermore, we see a wide spectrum of Bajoran believers on DS9. We see everything from stable, open-minded people (like Vedek Bareil, who basically says the whole science vs. religion battle is a false dichotomy) to total fanatics (like Akorem Laan or Kai Winn), and everyday people in between like Kira who have a mix of good and bad.
I guess the person who just posted in this thread carries an attitude so hateful towards religion that it's no wonder that the show that portrayed faith and religion the most accurately and with the most diversity, instead of sweeping it under the rug as though no good or smart person can believe (talk about being simplistic!) would piss him off.
Weeeeeeell, according to Trek, the ancient Greek religions are "true" as well, because it was seen on Who Mourns For Adonais way back on TOS that the Greek gods were actually real beings.
I wonder what this guy thinks of Stargate...
Who, me? I've only watched Stargate intermittently, so I don't get what you're referencing right off the bat.
No, I meant BuckarooSamurai. Part of the basic premise of that show is that all the ancient gods were real and played by alien con artists.
I'm just having a hard time reconciling the "Gods" of a Religion being shown to be nothing more than Superior Alien Beings as being tantamount to endorsing the Supernatural portion of a religion?
On the contrary, it shows the old trope of "Technology sufficiently advanced above your own is indistinguishable from magic" The show very succintly shows that the Bajorans were worshiping aliens that only appeared to be Gods.
On the contrary, it shows the old trope of "Technology sufficiently advanced above your own is indistinguishable from magic" The show very succintly shows that the Bajorans were worshiping aliens that only appeared to be Gods.
The difference is for the first time on Trek, such a race was actually treated with respect instead of patronizing. That attitude occurred in early episodes, but fortunately the Starfleet characters mostly got past it.
I do not find religion to intrinsically dangerous, and it does tend to build strong communties and generally a very giving attitudes. However I do believe religion has a lot of negatives (specifically to outagroups, and dissenters) and personally DS9 showed a lot of those negatives in a favorable light. Again personal opinion and for me DS9 was the weakest of the Star Trek Series outside of Movie 5. You did get me on a lot of fallacies and kudos to you. Just felt Bab5 dealt with the same issues a lot better than DS9 but with less production values and acting chops.
