Sounds like you've practiced that for awhile
DS9 = WORST Star Trek Series EVER
- Thread starter Tidus79001
- Start date
I think both. But DS9 got all out of balance, and forgot its origins and failed to respect it.
Sounds like you've practiced that for awhile
Pretty much came up with it on the spot, actually.
DS9 started off dull and uninteresting with some hard to like characters (Sisko, Odo, Kira), so it surprised the hell out of me when I warmed to them all and it ended up easily the best show in the franchise.
I kept expecting Voyager to improve in a similar way, but it remained resolutely average with some unlikeable characters...
I kept expecting Voyager to improve in a similar way, but it remained resolutely average with some unlikeable characters...
I actually find this to be a surprising criticism of Avery Brooks' acting. One could hardly accuse Brooks of being a lethargic performer. Perhaps in the first couple of seasons he was slightly more passive (but even then, you could really feel the love he had for Jake). In fact, sometimes gets criticized for being over the top or having odd halting speech patterns.
I happen to enjoy Avery Brooks' acting, but I can at least understand when someone compares his style unfavorably to Shatner's more negative performing habits.
Sounds like you've practiced that for awhile
Pretty much came up with it on the spot, actually.
True I liked that DS9 showed the dark side of the federation. Not everyone is Lawful Good.
You just took me back to Jr. high school and D & D!Sounds like you've practiced that for awhile
Pretty much came up with it on the spot, actually.
True I liked that DS9 showed the dark side of the federation. Not everyone is Lawful Good.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane!
I will be honest, when DS9 and Voyager first began airing, I was one of the TOS/TNG "holy rollers". "If it wasn't TOS or TNG, it wasn't Trek" in my mind back then. I also said they weren't on the Enterprise and with DS9, they're weren't even exploring, just sitting on their butts on a space station, so it wasn't Trek. I too was in shock over a female captain for Voyager back then and I am a female! Well, in short, as a child, when it came to my opinion back then, I was an idiot.
I began watching both shows halfway during Voyager's first season. I decided to cave and give them both a chance and was pleasantly surprised. I enjoyed them both and Voyager became my fave Trek. DS9 may not have surpassed the popularity of TNG, but it's certainly not without it's merits. (And honestly, we as fans may not allow a series, even newer ones in the future, if they occur to surpass TNG no matter how good or bad they are because of our biases. This isn't to demonize TNG, it's awesome and we all know it. It's the fan favorite and set the bar. However, just bringing up the point that we the fans overall may not allow or acknowledge any other Trek series presently or in the future surpass it).
Like many have said, DS9's gritty, dark side of the Federation. Sometimes, there was more politics than I'd care for, but it was necessary for the story, so I understood it. Season 2 was pretty bad though with a handful of episodes being exceptions such as "Blood Oath". Overall, it felt like the writers were on vacation in season 2. But hey, each series has their weaknesses.
Odo was probably my fave DS9 character. I really enjoyed his interactions with others and he was overall well written and acted.
I began watching both shows halfway during Voyager's first season. I decided to cave and give them both a chance and was pleasantly surprised. I enjoyed them both and Voyager became my fave Trek. DS9 may not have surpassed the popularity of TNG, but it's certainly not without it's merits. (And honestly, we as fans may not allow a series, even newer ones in the future, if they occur to surpass TNG no matter how good or bad they are because of our biases. This isn't to demonize TNG, it's awesome and we all know it. It's the fan favorite and set the bar. However, just bringing up the point that we the fans overall may not allow or acknowledge any other Trek series presently or in the future surpass it).
Like many have said, DS9's gritty, dark side of the Federation. Sometimes, there was more politics than I'd care for, but it was necessary for the story, so I understood it. Season 2 was pretty bad though with a handful of episodes being exceptions such as "Blood Oath". Overall, it felt like the writers were on vacation in season 2. But hey, each series has their weaknesses.
Odo was probably my fave DS9 character. I really enjoyed his interactions with others and he was overall well written and acted.
Quick answer to this one - no. I loved the Sisko character, and I've never really understood the criticism that the character and Brooks get. He's often cited as wooden, or the character is written wooden, but I never had a problem with that at all.
In addition, I always thought the relationship between Sisko and Jake was probably one of the most genuine in any of the Trek shows.
Did DS9 have its flaws, of course it did, largely for the reasons you cite, ie. no television show is without fault, and equally very few shows are without merit.
Voyager's positives - great premise, and a superbly written and played character in the EMH.
Personally, my main complaints around Voyager are the multitude of missed opportunities - premise, the year of hell debacle, the quick resolution to the Starfleet/Maquis crews coming together, the balls'd up Borg/Species 8472 story, the absolute shambles of a final episode.
DS9's primary strength lies in its rich cast of characters, and the numerous story threads that all hung together extremely well. Voyager's dynamics never really worked at all. Worse still, one that could have worked, akin to how the Bashir/O'Brien one worked out for DS9, was Paris/Kim, but sadly they went down the misguided route of pairing Tom off with BLT instead.
And the less said about the pandering to the shippers the better - Janeway/Chakotay, will they/won't they.....oh, please, it's not The X-Files FFS!
DSN tends to top fan polls, ye TNG was popular amongest the viewing figure as whole and as such sets the bar for the general audiance.
So the whole story I read the other day at the beginning of this thread was just a big fat lie?
Because to me, it now sounds like you have no intention WHATEVER of 'giving DS9 another chance' as was your stated premise. In fact, I have now gotten caught up, and none of what I expected this thread to turn into has come to pass. I expected you to discuss all of these episodes you were supposedly watching on Netflix - the good and the bad. But I now see that you have not mentioned even a single ONE. Not ONE.
My conclusion, therefore, can only be that you just used that as a pretext to come over here from the VOY forum to troll, in some misguided attempt at 'payback' for TrekBBS members in general (some of whom, but not all of whom, might be DS9 fans) not liking VOY and simply saying so. Because if THEY in fact, are trolling, I'm certain the VOY mods would take care of it.
Thanks for clearing that up. You now have a warning for trolling.
We welcome legitimate discussion in this forum - even if you don't like the show. Nothing wrong with controversy. But coming over here after only seeing a small handful of episodes (and yes, we know it has been only a handful - you tipped your hand when you remarked that Niners sometimes suggest new fans start with S3 because of the Defiant, thus revealing your near-complete ignorance of the Dominion storyline that dominated the show from S3 onward) and then claiming the whole thing is terrible is just really LAME trolling. I mean, it's not even GOOD trolling.
If you want to discuss this show like a civilized human being, please, you know...WATCH it first. Then come back and see us.
In some ways DS9 started out as the worst concept. It was basically completely started based on the Maquis vs the Feds and Cardasians and about the Cardasians leaving Bajor. Which really never were big fan favs from when they were introduced in TNG. So I can see why some people say that it didn't have much of a concept to start and that it had a slow start. But the writing after the first season or so made up for what DS9 lacked in a story and eventually developed into some of the best Trek writing. Now that all fell apart in season 7 IMO, but I think they just ran out of ideas.
Voyager could have tried to take on that DS9 Maquis vs Federation conflict and really put depth into it since DS9 had basically moved on to the Dominion by that time. Instead the Maquis story line was basically forgotten by the end of the 1st episodes outside of a few Torres moments. If Voyager were written more as a series like the Year of Hell episodes, maybe not as dark as that but if it were written more like that as a series it would have gone on to be a great series. Instead it was written as a series of technobabble stories that meant to say Janeway was some sort of saint that could do no wrong. They were basically stranded across the galaxy because of her decisions, and it was never discussed.
Voyager could have tried to take on that DS9 Maquis vs Federation conflict and really put depth into it since DS9 had basically moved on to the Dominion by that time. Instead the Maquis story line was basically forgotten by the end of the 1st episodes outside of a few Torres moments. If Voyager were written more as a series like the Year of Hell episodes, maybe not as dark as that but if it were written more like that as a series it would have gone on to be a great series. Instead it was written as a series of technobabble stories that meant to say Janeway was some sort of saint that could do no wrong. They were basically stranded across the galaxy because of her decisions, and it was never discussed.
Personally, I loved the Maquis storyline.
I loved the setup in TNG, and I thoroughly enjoyed the followup in DS9. Sadly, Voyager dropped the ball, even though it had a unique perspective to explore.
The initial problem I had with DS9 was the religious side of the show - the Kai, the prophets, the Emissary, the celestial temple blah blah blah. That story never did completely win me over, particularly when they took it up to the Prophets vs Pah'Wraiths level of the story. It all seemed very pantomime. Never really worked. Fortunately, the other side of that story, that of the impact on the Bajorans and their faith, was much better examined. I ended up enjoying that side of it.
I loved the setup in TNG, and I thoroughly enjoyed the followup in DS9. Sadly, Voyager dropped the ball, even though it had a unique perspective to explore.
The initial problem I had with DS9 was the religious side of the show - the Kai, the prophets, the Emissary, the celestial temple blah blah blah. That story never did completely win me over, particularly when they took it up to the Prophets vs Pah'Wraiths level of the story. It all seemed very pantomime. Never really worked. Fortunately, the other side of that story, that of the impact on the Bajorans and their faith, was much better examined. I ended up enjoying that side of it.
I don't think there is any "worst" but I do tend to love everything. DS9 has been the most personally meaningful series to me. I have my least favorite series too but I don't say it is the "worst" because ya know, it's just taste.
I'd take Brooks as captain over Bakula and Mulgrew any day. Stewart was the best actor, though not always on top of his game (writing had something to do with that too). And Shatner... well, given the context, he was terrific too, but doesn't fit in with later Trek. Brooks is definitely my 2nd favorite.
I would like to go on record as being surprised.
As a long term fan of Trek who is reasonably new to this site I expected to find that most people thought the same way :
Trek generally is great.
TOS was wonderful but of its time.
The TOS movies were pretty good except for 5.
TNG became great around Best of Both Worlds.
The Next Gen films aren't that good.
DS9 was proper grown up Trek that recovered from a questionable start to become the peak of the franchise.
Voyager was a mistake that improved slightly - intermittently enjoyable but with huge flaws.
Enterprise got quite good towards the end.
All of the above are self evident (to me) and any reasonable fan would naturally agree.
How wrong can you be...
As a long term fan of Trek who is reasonably new to this site I expected to find that most people thought the same way :
Trek generally is great.
TOS was wonderful but of its time.
The TOS movies were pretty good except for 5.
TNG became great around Best of Both Worlds.
The Next Gen films aren't that good.
DS9 was proper grown up Trek that recovered from a questionable start to become the peak of the franchise.
Voyager was a mistake that improved slightly - intermittently enjoyable but with huge flaws.
Enterprise got quite good towards the end.
All of the above are self evident (to me) and any reasonable fan would naturally agree.
How wrong can you be...
Prepare to have your expectations dashed.
