DS9 = WORST Star Trek Series EVER
- Thread starter Tidus79001
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I'd take it further than that----you can only go so far with separate adventures each week, no matter whether they're on a ship or on a station.
In my opinion, strong arc-based storytelling elevates a TV show to a level that episodic storytelling can rarely match. Of course, it depends on the writers and what types of stories they're good at writing. Some Star Trek episodic stories have been fantastic, and some TV series have attempted arcs and still been lame.
Now, DS9's first year has very little arc to it, and even years 2 and 3 are fairly light on the arc. To be frank, DS9 never became quite so arc-centric as its main competitor back in the day, Babylon 5. (Fantastic show also, by the way, although its attempts at non-arc episodes were often weak.)
But as the seasons progress, Deep Space Nine does tend to build upon what came before in a way that the other Star Trek series rarely did. And that's something which the station-based setting enhanced, rather than detracted from, because the same players are always around when you need to bring them back for another story. (Voyager repeatedly running into the same Kazon despite theoretically making a beeline for home stretched credibility.)
You are correct that sooner or later, the story must be projected out from the station itself using a ship; not because the station doesn't work as a dramatic setting, but because the story by this point has taken on a scope which benefits from the inclusion of other perspectives. The key is that the ship is not replacing the station setting; it's expanding it. Making the entire tapestry more grand than it had been before.
And? They still make sense within the context of the story. "Way of the Warrior" happens to be my favorite DS9 episode.
False, Voyager did it as well with Robert Duncan McNeil as I pointed out earlier. You still haven't told us why this is a bad thing.
Um, no it isn't. It's a superlative.
Really? The destruction of Enterprise in Generations was written to boost DS9's ratings?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
Speaking of facts, where are yours? What evidence do you have that these decisions were made because the show was failing? If you think adding the Defiant was a "revamp", you clearly haven't watched the show. They remained on the station. They didn't go off on a mission of exploration. Many episodes didn't include the Defiant whatsoever, especially in season 5. Again, where are your facts?
I feel similarly about TOS. Like you are doing with DS9, I tried to watch all of TOS, but midway through I had to stop because the show was boring me and I was aggravated that it wasn't improving.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Like I start previouslyHowever, the introduction of Seven of Nine was the exact same thing, a ratings stunt designed to shore up Voyager's flagging ratings. Both stunts were ultimately a failure as the ratings for both shows continued to slide, but I believe that both stunts were dramatically successful.
But it is interesting how you choose to criticise DS9 for its ratings stunt while commending Voyager for doing the same thing.
Uh, what planet are you living on?
The introduction of Seven of Nine/Worf are COMPLETELY comparable. They were BOTH introduced at the beginning of season 4 in the hope that they would attract new viewers. And you could easily argue that the introduction of Seven of Nine was much more cynical than the introduction of Worf considering the immediate appeal seemed to be combining what the producers thought were the favorite two things of Trek fans - Borg and Boobs.
You're ridiculous, nowhere is it so obvious that you haven't seen enough of the show to comment than here. The Defiant didn't suddenly allow the crew to have offworld adventures, they had ALWAYS had the runabouts and used them to go and visit various worlds and have your precious forehead alien of the week encounters. Battle Lines, The Storyteller, Progress, Rules of Acquisition, Armageddon Game, Paradise, Shadowplay, Blood Oath, The Maquis Pt 1/2, Tribunal, The Jem'Hadar to name the ones in the first two seasons alone
And they even continued to use runabouts for more off-world excursions later on.
I assume you're not a lawyer since you haven't died from starvation.
There's a reason why you see "Deep Space Nine" still listed on best tv shows/best sci-fi tv shows list and you see "Voyager" criticized. "Deep Space Nine" developed its characters, developed long-running storylines, developed the universe in which it took place. That's what is ultimately seen as important for a TV show by most people and critics especially. Clearly you're the kind of person who would much rather watch a show like "NCIS" than "Breaking Bad" for example. It much easier to watch a show where its a fun adventure every week with barely any consequences, than to watch a show that wants to tell you a story but requires the patience for you to keep track of what's going on and to pay attention beyond watching the purty colors and shapes.
No, I'm not. Your argument was that Worf was added to the show because it was "flagging", and that's somewhat true when it comes to the show's ratings. You're trying to use the introduction of Worf as a sign that DS9 was a failure.
Well, I put it to you that the introduction of Seven was a sign that Voyager was failing. Whether Seven was a previously established character or not is irrelevant to the fact that the introduction of a "Borg babe" was used as a stunt to drum up interest in a show with falling ratings. Do you deny this?
Nope, the introduction of Worf to DS9 is explained on the DVDs. They already planned to bring in the Klingons as an enemy in season 4 and while Ira Behr was describing this plan to Rick Berman, Berman had the epiphany that this would be a perfect opportunity to bring Worf over to the show to drum up ratings. The conflict with the Klingons was not cooked up so that Worf could be brought over, and the destruction of the Enterprise-D most certainly had nothing to do with the plans the DS9 writers were coming up with.
People are sometimes advised to start with season 3 not because that's when the Defiant was introduced, but because that's when the Dominion were introduced. The Dominion are at the centre of the show's main story-arc, so new viewers that want to experience that story but find the first season tough to stomach are sometimes told to start there and to skip the pre-Dominion era of the show. It has nothing to do with the Defiant.
What the Defiant really allows them to do is go on these adventures together. With the runabout sets they were pretty much kept to 2 - 4 members, but with the Defiant you can take everyone along...in theory. I don't think we saw them all on the Defiant at one time, mostly because Quark and Jake weren't Starfleet or Bajoran personnel.
It's also funny that they added the Defiant to give the station's defence some teeth, yet it never actually performed that duty. The only time it did was in a MU episode, so it wasn't the "real" Defaint.
To be fair DS9 was really the only show really suitable to do it in. Voyager was set across the other side of the galaxy so adding a TNG character would mean they would be removed from the TNG film franchise and someone from DS9 would be too late in the run without some sort of emergency cast replacement. As for ENT, it has the TNG film issue as well. You do have DS9 and VOY crew to draw from, but it would be a very tough sell (close to impossible) that someone from a previous series just happens to end up on the ship that helped form the Federation.
And yet, they sort of did this anyway with Reg Barclay. He may not have been a regular, but he sure did seem to show up a lot towards the end.
I think it's a fair comparison since Deep Space Nine certainly blurs on the line between being in the main credits and being a central character to the show often enough as well.
IMO The negative/confrontational nature of the original post and thread title was just a way for the OP to bait Niners into getting defensive over DS9. The OP could have simply stated that he didn't enjoy the few DS9 episodes he had seen and stated the reasons.
My personal experience is that the only ST series I liked from the very beginning was TOS - and that was because it was all so new for me. The others took a while to find their footing.
DS9 became a great show when it broke away from the TNG style and started to develop story arcs and characters (especially the recurring characters).
Also, the reasons behind WHY they added characters/ships or anything else to the show are irrelevant to me. It only matters that the additions worked and created a better show moving forward.
I appreciate that not every ST fan likes every show, but I will always give each show it's due respect as an element of the ST Universe.
My personal experience is that the only ST series I liked from the very beginning was TOS - and that was because it was all so new for me. The others took a while to find their footing.
DS9 became a great show when it broke away from the TNG style and started to develop story arcs and characters (especially the recurring characters).
Also, the reasons behind WHY they added characters/ships or anything else to the show are irrelevant to me. It only matters that the additions worked and created a better show moving forward.
I appreciate that not every ST fan likes every show, but I will always give each show it's due respect as an element of the ST Universe.
Yep. Don't like DS9? Then stop watching it. And stop posting in this forum for the purpose of riling people up. I've only seen a few episodes of Enterprise and I didn't like it; but that doesn't give me license to go over to that forum and start a bash thread.
No, Voyager's the worst! Or maybe Enterprise, but its final two seasons could put it slightly above Voyager.
DS9 is not even close.
Then again, I'm a Trekkie... and a pragmatist. There are episodes in any Trek show that I happen to enjoy. It's just so that the good/bad ratio in some Trek shows is more favorable than in other shows. DS9 had one of the better ratios. Fortunately, it wasn't cancelled after two seasons though.
DS9 is not even close.
Then again, I'm a Trekkie... and a pragmatist. There are episodes in any Trek show that I happen to enjoy. It's just so that the good/bad ratio in some Trek shows is more favorable than in other shows. DS9 had one of the better ratios. Fortunately, it wasn't cancelled after two seasons though.
DS9 was pretty good from about seasons 2-6. Season 7 fell apart. Season 1 was trying to find it's footing and build a Trek series differently. They learned early on that they couldn't have one off guests a lot because they were station built so they had to find out which characters worked and which didn't.
The thing about DS9 is that it pretty much built on it's arcs from season 2-6.
Voyager never lived up to what it could have been. As a series if it was more like the episode Year of Hell it would have been an awesome show. But instead we got what we actually ended up getting which was a TNG/TOS retread that didn't have many good characters. Enterprise is pretty much the same thing except it didn't really have potential to start.It basically tried to rewrite the aliens in the Trek universe we already knew about. It's between Enterprise and Voyager for the worst Star Trek shows.
The thing about DS9 is that it pretty much built on it's arcs from season 2-6.
Voyager never lived up to what it could have been. As a series if it was more like the episode Year of Hell it would have been an awesome show. But instead we got what we actually ended up getting which was a TNG/TOS retread that didn't have many good characters. Enterprise is pretty much the same thing except it didn't really have potential to start.It basically tried to rewrite the aliens in the Trek universe we already knew about. It's between Enterprise and Voyager for the worst Star Trek shows.
My advice is don't. The show isn't for you.
Personally, I've of a very minority opinion: I thought the pilot was great and the show went downhill from there. I wasn't really interested in the war arc. I quit watching DS9 altogether around the middle of season five. Later, in reruns, I saw "In the Pale Moonlight." Awesome episode. And I eventually saw the season six opening arc and later the final arc that led to the finale.
The show really isn't for me, so I don't watch it. I rarely post here, although I do visit the forum occasionally because I have some memories of watching the show when I was young. Aside from the pilot episode, "Trials and Tribble-ations," and "In the Pale Moonlight," I don't have any interest in ever watching the show again.
That said, the idea that DS9 is boring because it "doesn't go anywhere" is about as laughable as one can get. Do you avoid all contemporary shows because they're stuck on earth and "don't go anywhere?" If so, there isn't a very wide selection of shows or movies for you to watch. "Schindler's List?" "They're all stuck in Germany, how boring!" There are plenty of things to legitimately criticize about DS9, but "they don't go anywhere" isn't one of them. Silly.
Life is short. Don't waste it doing things you don't like.
I basically love all of Trek. I don't see how someone could love one incarnation and hate another. DS9, TNG and VOY really aren't that different - they're just different faces of the same coin.
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It's worth doing. I did the same thing and now I really like the show. Your mileage may vary, but it's worth the effort.
It would certainly explain his avatar.
Did Mojo come back with a new TrekBBS account?
If the character depth and development of Harry Kim is more his speed (DS9 does have numerous characters and recurring storylines to follow, after all, which not everyone is capable of), then who cares? Let him watch his Voyager.
Of course, coming in here to bash DS9 means all bets are off and everyone should let him have it. Because if he's gonna bitch and moan about a show he intends to hate before, during and after, we already know how this will end.
The biggest problems of Enterprise were in the first two seasons, which were basically seasons 8-9 of Voyager (coming from me, that's the biggest condemnation of anything Trek I could give). It really took off in seasons 3-4.
The reset button on Year of Hell spells out everything about Voyager.
My biggest problem the first time around was that I just didn't care for the characters that much. I thought they were extremely dull.
