DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[flemm]

Personally, I like seeing vocal support for Voyager compared to DS9. It can't just be Anwar.

Yeah, a lot of people are vocal in their dislike for Voyager, so it's only fair that DS9 take its share of lumps as well.

At the end of the day Voyager is still going to suck and DS9 is still going to be awesome, of course, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for disagreement

 

[Kai Winn]

exactly why they committed assisted suicide also escaped me.

Seriously, you don't get that? That was at the core of the episode, if you don't understand that point then you clearly weren't paying attention.

clearly. it bored me when i watched it the 1th time on air, and i learned only afterwards that niners regard it as an unrivalled masterpiece. can't help but shake my head. watched it a 2th time last year, but it didn't get any better.
'the raven' is probably the poorest epsiode in a very good voayger season, but there's a silver lining. 1.kes is gone. 2.the depiction of the b'omar, and the preposterous course they plotted for voyager trough their space. there are dozend of countries like this on earth, but this sort of race in outer space is obviously rare.

 

[TheGodBen]

clearly. it bored me when i watched it the 1th time on air, and i learned only afterwards that niners regard it as an unrivalled masterpiece. can't help but shake my head. watched it a 2th time last year, but it didn't get any better.

I didn't think much of it myself when I first saw it on TV, I didn't think it was bad it just didn't stand out. But when I rewatched it on DVD it stood out as a great episode, and my impression of it has only improved with time.

The point was that the Jem'Hadar couldn't rebel because they were genetically engineered to follow orders, and while some Jem'Hadar are able to break their programming, these Jem'Hadar were not. Third Remata'Klan merely questioned orders at one point and he felt great shame for it. To the Jem'Hadar, betraying orders is almost as unthinkable as killing children is to us; it's not right, it goes against the very fibre of their being, it's immoral. For them, when choosing between betraying their orders or death, death was the preferred option.

 

[Eyes]

exactly why they committed assisted suicide also escaped me.

Seriously, you don't get that? That was at the core of the episode, if you don't understand that point then you clearly weren't paying attention.

clearly. it bored me when i watched it the 1th time on air, and i learned only afterwards that niners regard it as an unrivalled masterpiece. can't help but shake my head. watched it a 2th time last year, but it didn't get any better.
'the raven' is probably the poorest epsiode in a very good voayger season, but there's a silver lining. 1.kes is gone. 2.the depiction of the b'omar, and the preposterous course they plotted for voyager trough their space. there are dozend of countries like this on earth, but this sort of race in outer space is obviously rare.

Rocks and Shoals? Boring? Those two words don't go together in the same sentence. It's one of the most involving and interesting episodes I've watched.

You know what bored me? Every single Seven episode I've ever watched, except for maybe Prey and Drone. And that's going all the way up to the middle of the fifth season.

And what's this silver lining that Kes is gone? Some of us think she was a very interesting character, in several ways a lot more interesting than Seven and in terms of raw character potential, better than all male characters on Voyager aside from the Doctor.

Have to agree with you on the B'omar, that was the only part of the episode I even paid attention to.

 

[flemm]

The point was that the Jem'Hadar couldn't rebel because they were genetically engineered to follow orders, and while some Jem'Hadar are able to break their programming, these Jem'Hadar were not.

Trek writers have a tendency to leap straight to the exception before the rule is established, to go for the gimmick before the premise is fully explored. Another example of this is in DS9 is Defiant, where the station's new warship is hijacked by the Maquis before it has been used more than a few times by the regular crew.

The Jem'Hadar actually fall prey to this twice, in Hippocratic Oath and, to lesser degree, in To The Death. Rocks and Shoals is important for re-establishing the Jem'Hadar as loyal soldiers, but beyond that it just works really well from a dramatic point of view because of good performances, especially by Brooks and whoever plays the Vorta.

 

[TheGodBen]

And it's a beautiful episode to watch, very well directed in a fabulous location. One thing I notice while watching B5 is the lack of location shooting, and this episode is one of Trek's best examples of its use.

Oh, and I found this picture of Sisko the other day on the old BBC cult site:

Benjamin Sisko, Captain of Deep Space Nine, looking relaxed.
Rocks and Shoals.

I really hope they were being ironic.

 

[flemm]

And it's a beautiful episode to watch, very well directed in a fabulous location. One thing I notice while watching B5 is the lack of location shooting, and this episode is one of Trek's best examples of its use.

Oh, and I found this picture of Sisko the other day on the old BBC cult site:

Benjamin Sisko, Captain of Deep Space Nine, looking relaxed.
Rocks and Shoals.

I really hope they were being ironic.

LoL! Well, the rifle is resting on his shoulder, and his shirt is open in the front... So... Apparently whoever wrote the caption had just seen the still

 

[Pemmer Harge]

It just doesn't stick with you the same way R&S does, no where near it. DS9 takes the week.

You know what? I had the exact opposite reaction! Between the Darkness and the Light is one of my very favourite episodes of B5, whereas, although Rocks and Shoals is good, I found it a slight let-down after A Time to Stand. Certainly, BtD&tL is seared into my brain in a way that R&S is not (and I saw the latter more recently).

I think B5 gets pretty much everything right in this episode. The plot moves along at a relentless pace, but we also get enough character and thematic stuff to give the story weight. Most strikingly for me, although I had a pretty good idea of what was going to happen to Ivanova after this episode, her fate here still had a great impact and that's a good trick to pull off (like how, watching Second Skin, I half believed Kira really was a Cardassian, even though I knew for sure that she wasn't).

Rocks and Shoals is a good episode, but I don't rate it quite as highly as many fans do. The stuff on the planet is good and the Vorta was a memorable villain, but it lacked a certain intensity for me. The scenes on DS9 are probably the best bits. Kira and Odo are in a fascinating situation.

It's interesting to compare these shows now that they're both in arc mode: for me, these episodes of B5 (i.e. everything from No Surrender, No Retreat to Rising Star) have a greater energy and intensity than these episodes of DS9, good though they are. I also personally found myself caring more about what was going on in B5, which I guess is due to the way we've watched Earth sliding into dictatorship over the last few seasons and seen the characters having to react to that. I really appreciate what DS9 is doing with this story arc, but to me the Dominion War can't match that for impact - it's not so personal. Also, I tend to think that episodes like this are what B5 does best, whereas what DS9 does best, for all its good story arcs, is more standalone, character focused episodes.

 

[DevilEyes]

clearly. it bored me when i watched it the 1th time on air, and i learned only afterwards that niners regard it as an unrivalled masterpiece. can't help but shake my head. watched it a 2th time last year, but it didn't get any better.

I didn't think much of it myself when I first saw it on TV, I didn't think it was bad it just didn't stand out. But when I rewatched it on DVD it stood out as a great episode, and my impression of it has only improved with time.

I thought it was awesome when I first saw it on TV, and I still think that. It really is amazing that it managed to make deaths of a bunch of Jem'Hadar - genetically engineered enemy soldiers! - we'd never seen before, feel so sad and tragic.

 

[TheGodBen]

Well, I was 12 at the time when I first saw it and there was no space battles in it.

 

[Sykonee]

You know, if things keep going at this rate I might overtake you in watching B5 and I'll finally be able to read all your posts! And I'll be able to criticise you for making all the wrong calls!

Hah, I can only imagine how hard it must be to not bring up old posts from seasons back at this point.

You know what? I had the exact opposite reaction! Between the Darkness and the Light is one of my very favourite episodes of B5, whereas, although Rocks and Shoals is good, I found it a slight let-down after A Time to Stand. Certainly, BtD&tL is seared into my brain in a way that R&S is not (and I saw the latter more recently).

I think a part of what holds back Darkness & Light, at least for me, is we don't get a proper scene with Sheriden and Garibaldi. It was just glossed over during the jailbreak (again, a scene in of itself that felt lacking due to the ease of it and rushed for time), with the only apparent blow-off being Sheriden fragging that security guard and giving Garibaldi the stink-eye. Dang it, we needed more than just that, and it's something I'd much rather have seen than a lengthy deathbed scene for Ivanova. Ah well, his reunion with Delenn was good anyway.

 

[flemm]

The scenes on DS9 are probably the best bits. Kira and Odo are in a fascinating situation.

These scenes definitely deserve a mention. It's a sign of how strong Kira's character is at this point in the show that the writers can have her drift toward collaboration with her sworn enemy without the story feeling forced at all, and without undermining all the character development up to this point. It's just utterly believable that Kira slowly slips into complacency for all the right (and wrong) reasons.

It's a brief appearance, but whoever plays the Vedek gives a strong performance. "What will it take to make you understand?" "I hope that tomorrow we both understand." "Evil must be opposed."

Both the A and B stories have a kind of tragic inevitability about them, which is what ties them together and gives the episode its dramatic weight.

 

[TheGodBen]

Hah, I can only imagine how hard it must be to not bring up old posts from seasons back at this point.

I went through season 1 only yesterday, and I can't believe that TKO didn't win against All Good Things! All Good Things was a complete hack piece, it's barely even science fiction, whereas TKO was a rollercoaster of emotion what with all that Jewish religious stuff, and the amazing story of some guest star that I can't remember getting in a fight with some alien for no good reason. What were you smoking?!

 

[Kai Winn]

The point was that the Jem'Hadar couldn't rebel because they were genetically engineered to follow orders, and while some Jem'Hadar are able to break their programming, these Jem'Hadar were not. Third Remata'Klan merely questioned orders at one point and he felt great shame for it. To the Jem'Hadar, betraying orders is almost as unthinkable as killing children is to us; it's not right, it goes against the very fibre of their being, it's immoral. For them, when choosing between betraying their orders or death, death was the preferred option.

i would challenge that they were engineered to follow orders
from a vorta who betrays the founders. the jem hadar were not too bright, agreed, but their programming should tell them to protect the founders, and to thwart the schemes of this vorta. another jem hadar killed an early weyoun edition in casual fashion for a far smaller offense.

 

[mattyhugh]

It still strikes me as funny that Anwar 2.0 has a DS9 related username.

 

[flemm]

It still strikes me as funny that Anwar 2.0 has a DS9 related username.

To a degree perhaps, but how would you describe Kai Winn the character?

 

[mattyhugh]

It still strikes me as funny that Anwar 2.0 has a DS9 related username.

To a degree perhaps, but how would you describe Kai Winn the character?

Power hungry and deranged.

 

[flemm]

Power hungry and deranged.

Ha, yeah, well my thought was more just that she is quite the conniving antagonist, so perhaps not totally inappropriate for a DS9-bashing namesake.

 

[mattyhugh]

Power hungry and deranged.

Ha, yeah, well my thought was more just that she is quite the conniving antagonist, so perhaps not totally inappropriate for a DS9-bashing namesake.

No, for sake of this thread, we'll just go with deranged.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 7: (Ending 10.19.97)
DS9 - Sons And Daughters (Airdate 10.13.97)
B5 - Endgame (Airdate 10.16.97)

It's weeks like these that one can't help but figure there's some kind of deal between each show's producers.

JMS: Hey, Behr ol' buddy, I got my Big Super Event Episode this week. Think you could take a powder then? I know you're in the middle of your Occupation Arc and all, but...
ISB: Sure, no problem, J'. You gave us that break during the last Feb Sweeps, so we'll do a Worf/Alexander story here. They were never popular back in the TNG days.
JMS: Oh, wow, awesome man! Thanks, I owe you one.
ISB: Yes you do. And I intend to collect that debt very soon...

There isn't much more to comment on with regards to Endgame. It's an excellent finale to the Earth War Arc, with a ton of wonderful little touches for the dedicated fan to enjoy (like the sight of Minbari and Earth Force fighters working together to save the planet!). So, I'll just mention a couple things that have always stood out for me.

1. The ISN Scene
My throat gets lumpy and my eyes get watery every time I watch it. I really can't explain it. Kudos to Maggie Egan, taking an incredibly peripheral character and conveying an overwhelming sense of grief, joy, anguish, and hopefulness in such a brief scene.

2. The Marcus Scene
Not so much for the scene itself, but for what my mum said when we first watched this episode together first-run (yes, I watched it with my dear ol' - who do you think got me intrigued about B5 and DS9 in the first place?)

My Mum: No, not for her!

Yeah, she was a Marcus fan. Big time.

Weekly Winner
B5

Next:
DS9 - Behind The Lines
B5 - Rising Star