DS9 Versus: A viewing experient

[Pemmer Harge]

The Reckoning - Oh dear, what is this? Suddenly there's some sort of ultimate showdown thing that's about to happen? And it turns out to be some sort of Final Fantasy magic face off? What?!!

I actually think DS9's portrayal of religion was pretty good up until Season 5 or so, but after that they sort of lost the plot.

I'm not sure if I've even seen Living Witness, but it's supposed to be really good, so Voyager surely wins this one.

 

[Seven of Five]

Ha! Final Fantasy!

The only Pah-Wraith storyline I liked was the Tears of the Prophets/Image in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols arc. Sure Jadzia died in a crummy way, and sure Dukat had stopped being compelling, but the Prophets vs. Pah-Wraiths battle had stepped up a gear and seemed more epic, and of course Sisko was no use for three months after he lost the plot after Dax's death.

 

[TheGodBen]

Living Witness is my favourite episode of Voyager... but The Reckoning still wins!

Just kidding, Living Witness runs away with this one.

 

[Eyes]

Well, I rather liked the Reckoning. I do like the end of Season 6, most of which aren't liked very much by the fanbase. That is, I like 5 out of 6 of the averageish episodes The Reckoning onwards.

Living Witness is clearly the winner, however.

 

[Sykonee]

Week 33: (Ending 05.09.98)
DS9 - Valiant (Airdate 05.06.98)
VOY - Demon (Airdate 05.06.98)


When Moore and Vejar team up, usually they turn out something great. What happened here though? Yeah, there's some great bits on the technical front: watching the Valiant get totally thrashed was quite entertaining. Yet, should I be entertained by what is supposed to be a tragic moment in the episode? Was it supposed to be tragic? I can't think of anyone who'd be routing for Red Squad, which was undoubtedly the point - to see how their smug cockiness would be the doom of them. Unfortunately, I have a difficult time believing that any squad of elite cadets - no matter how much they buy into their own hype - would actually attempt
such a suicide mission. Okay, maybe Watters would, but it's clear he has delusions of Kirk-dom on his mind. The rest of 'em though? I dunno.

The episode gets some bonus points for giving Nog more solid character development, and it's always nice to see the larger Trek canvas filled in with a new, unique details like what a lunar resident would do for fun. Beyond that...

Still better than Demon. As much as I have a hard time buying into the Red Squad premise, I totally can't buy into VOY's. Okay, so technically this planet isn't as volatile as, say, Venus, and maybe Starfleet has tested their environmental suits on Venus to make sure they're sturdy enough to handle any planet (or... wait, isn't there supposed to be some sort of terra-forming occurring on Venus in the Trek universe? Aaahh... thinking... too... much...); however, I can't buy into the idea that everyone can just simply walk around for as long as they do without some sort of damage or corrosion. Not to mention how that shuttle was still in pristine condition WITH THE DOOR OPEN! So much for a 'demon' planet. It actually seemed quite tame, once you got to the surface. Must have very mild atmospheric pressure, despite all the nasty stuff they say is floating around in the air.

There was some other plot developments, like a liquid-metal lifeform replicating the crew and oh who cares about that stuff it's just more DNA ridiculousness that VOY never seems to be good at anymore if they ever were in the first place. And hopefully, they'll find some other place to stock up on deuterium, since it seems they'd be killing the living liquid metal that was storing it. Might I suggest they try the nearest star? Or a planet with water? Or anywhere you might find an abundance of hydrogen? Must be tough to find, out there in space, y'know.

Let's face it: the only good thing that came from this episode was Jammer's review.

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - Profit And Lace
VOY - One

But first, I go on a mini-vacation. See ya'll in a week!

 

[DevilEyes]

Ha! Final Fantasy!

The only Pah-Wraith storyline I liked was the Tears of the Prophets/Image in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols arc. Sure Jadzia died in a crummy way, and sure Dukat had stopped being compelling, but the Prophets vs. Pah-Wraiths battle had stepped up a gear and seemed more epic, and of course Sisko was no use for three months after he lost the plot after Dax's death.

Well, then I suppose I definitely hate every Pah-wraith arc. OK, maybe not 100% hate - the Dukat/Winn/Pah-wraiths thing, however dumb it was overall, did give Winn some very interesting character moments and overall made her more interesting than she ever was before... probably the only good thing to come out of it all. But Jesus Sisko and the ultra-creepy and problematic (on so many levels) Prophet Mom storyline... ugh. In some ways it might bt worse, but in many ways it is as bad for what it does to the show and its religious storylines, particularly what it does to the Prophets.

 

[TheGodBen]

Unfortunately, I have a difficult time believing that any squad of elite cadets - no matter how much they buy into their own hype - would actually attempt
such a suicide mission. Okay, maybe Watters would, but it's clear he has delusions of Kirk-dom on his mind. The rest of 'em though? I dunno.

I have no such trouble buying into it. In general, young people are idiots, and many of them think of themselves as invincible for some reason. Red Squad were taken at that impressionable point in their lives, told that they were special repeatedly, allowed to fly around in an advanced warship, and managed to survive behind enemy lines for almost a year. Not all of them would have bought into the notion that they were unstoppable, and not all of them did (Dorian Collins), but enough of them did to force the others to go along with the plan.

If nothing else, this episode is a rebuttal of Star Trek XI and demonstrates why the new movie doesn't feel like Star Trek to me: Ron Moore, Ira Behr, René Echevarria, Michael Piller, even Brannon Braga... they were the driving forces behind the Star Trek I loved, along with many others I'm too lazy to name, and they all knew better than to write a movie like Trek XI. Yes, even Brannon Braga.

Anyway, Valiant wins this week, and it looks like DS9 is going to win again next week. (Profit and Lace is the episode where the Romulans enter the war, isn't it? )

 

[Kegg]

Okay, we all know how this one plays out. But damn... Who remembers when that first aired, huh? For most of '98, there'd been this overhanging doom on DS9. Things just weren't going well for Our Heroes, leading us to In The Pale Moonlight, where we were promised something significant was going to occur. With the somber narration from Sisko, all leading up to the immortal "It's a fa-a-a-ake!", you just had this sense of, of...

And then it cut to commerical. I still remember seeing that episode in first run and then it cut to commerical.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Valiant is a great episode! Or at least, a really good one. I can definitely buy what happens and I think it's a really good outing for Jake and Nog, who both have great scenes. I guess this is just an occasion where I'm out of sync with the DS9 fandom in general (though this BBS is really the only place where I've encountered scorn for this episode). Moore and Vejar is indeed a good combination, and I actually like this one better than Rocks and Shoals (though not as much as something coming next season).

 

[tomalak301]

Valiant vs. Demon?

Ouch, that's a tough choice. Both episodes were awful, but I think I would have to go with Demon. Valiant just really angers me every time I see it.

 

[Damask]

I actually like Valiant. Its not the greatest but given all the hints about Red Squad I can totally see why they would do what they did. Nog gets some good development too. Jake being cocky because of his dad was nice too.

Although I think Sisko would have attacked the ship but he had an experienced crew with him. Would have been nice to compare the DS9 characters with the Valiant crew. Maybe a "I;m sorry Nog, do you really think your as good as Chief O'Brien"? Or compare the first officer with Kira

 

[Seven of Five]

I like Valiant too, it was a great Nog episode. Perhaps it's one of those polarising episodes that splits fandom in half?

Demon was plain silly.

 

[TheGodBen]

Yeah, Valiant and Fascination seem to be the Marmite episodes of DS9, people either like them or absolutely loath them. Oddly enough, I'm not a fan of Fascination but I am a fan of Valiant.

 

[Seven of Five]

Blech! Fascination was over the top sillyness. Lwaxana Troi episodes always tended to be like that though, I really don't know why TNG kept churning them out. No, wait, there's an obvious answer.

It's a shame DS9 had to have 3 of them before finally stopping the ritual. I think those episodes were on a par with the substandard Ferengi episodes. There are a few that I like, but a lot of them I feel were fluff. The Ferengi though are bit of a Marmite species I suppose.

 

[tomalak301]

Yeah, Valiant and Fascination seem to be the Marmite episodes of DS9, people either like them or absolutely loath them. Oddly enough, I'm not a fan of Fascination but I am a fan of Valiant.

I don't like either, but I can at least tolorate Fascination on multiple viewings. Valiant, on the other hand, was just terrible all around.

 

[DevilEyes]

Valiant was OK, I don't get the hate.

Fascination, OTOH, was just terrible, embarrassing, idiotic, and it's best just to forget that it ever existed.

 

[Eyes]

I don't get the hate on either Valiant or Fascination. I enjoy them both. In fact, they are some of the episodes that I like quite a lot.

I won't go as far as favourite episodes, but both are definitely in the top half of their respective seasons for me.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I really like both Fascination and Valiant.

Waltz and Take Me Out to the Holosuite (both of which I dislike), seem to be two more episodes that sharply divide fans.

 

[Vulcan Princess]

Fascination is one of my guilty pleasures. It's so bad it's good. I don't much care for Valiant. Take Me Out to the Holosuite is ok but not great.

 

[Bones2]

I'd never waste my time watching Fascination again. Valiant was alright, especially as the bratty kids got it in the neck at the end. Same thing should have happened in Trek XI.