I'm finally looking at these comparisons and I'm thinking to myself I want to go on Ebay and find a LaserDisc player. I don't even know if I'm joking.
DS9: Redefined 2.0 - The Ultimate DS9 Upscale Project
- Thread starter Cryogenator
- Start date
The later seasons look better on DVD because the shows switched to component editing, and DVD is component whereas LD is composite. Also, the American LaserDiscs used a better source than the Japanese LaserDiscs, but more episodes were released in Japan than America, so the ultimate sources are American LaserDiscs for the first two-and-a-half seasons (through 3x14 - "Heart of Stone," plus 3x26 - "Adversary" from The Captains Collection), Japanese LaserDiscs for the last half of the third season (from 3x15 - "Destiny" through 3x25 - "Facets"), and American DVDs for the last four seasons of Deep Space Nine, and for Voyager, the American LaserDisc of "Caretaker," Japanese LaserDiscs for the rest of the first four seasons, and American DVDs for the last three seasons. (All PAL LD and DVD releases look and sound worse due to lossy conversion from NTSC to PAL.)
However, the Japanese LDs have occasional hardcoded subtitles which could be manually replaced with DVD information.
A Domesday Duplicator RF capture will look better than normal playback, and three to five stacked RF captures will look best because dropouts will be minimized or eliminated.
While I have you, here are two more questions:
Why do the LaserDisc versions of DS9 have more vibrant color than the DVDs?
Are the DVDs or the LaserDiscs the correct color grading?
Thanks!
I know part of being a long running Star Trek fan is playing a never ending game of chicken with Paramount Home Video, but as one of those people who paid $85 a pop in early 2000's money for the DVD seasons, it's quite disappointing to learn that they were trumped by earlier LaserDisc releases.
I love the concept of LaserDisc. It's literally the video equivalent of a vinyl record. It's the ultimate hipster video format.
If I thought it would be worth it, I'd get one. My id wants me to get one. But, no, I'll stick to Blu-Ray. Unfortunately.
Though I do have a record player I bought at Target. I even have a 45 to go with it. I bought an Evanescence album. The 20th Anniversary edition of Fallen.
If I thought it would be worth it, I'd get one. My id wants me to get one. But, no, I'll stick to Blu-Ray. Unfortunately.
Though I do have a record player I bought at Target. I even have a 45 to go with it. I bought an Evanescence album. The 20th Anniversary edition of Fallen.
Presumably incompetence or bad taste by someone(s) on the DVD team(s).
The DVDs have a green tint which is obvious when comparing them to the more accurately graded LaserDiscs. People have watched the green-tinted DVDs, broadcasts, and streams for so long that they incorrectly think that's how Deep Space Nine and Voyager should look. The most accurate color grading would be a Dolby Vision HDR regrade bringing out all the color information contained in the 35mm negatives.
Except for the easily correctable green tint present on all DVD seasons, only the first three seasons of DS9 and first four of Voyager look better on LaserDisc because those seasons were edited through a composite pipeline and LaserDisc is a composite format. DVD is a component format, and the composite to component conversions were poorly done. Conversely, the later seasons were edited through a component pipeline, so they look better on DVD since no conversion was done, whereas the LaserDiscs of DS9's fourth and fifth seasons and Voyager's fifth season were lossily downconverted from component to composite.
Also, as I noted above, the American LaserDiscs look better than the Japanese LaserDiscs since the Japanese used tapes with more generation loss. However, a few episodes of DS9 and all but the pilot of Voyager were released on NTSC LaserDisc only in Japan (and all PAL LD and DVD releases look worse due to lossy NTSC to PAL conversion).
Many later LaserDiscs have both digital and analog audio tracks.
Not sure you know of these projects but a few years ago I ran across a coupleof AI upscale projects . One from "Joybell" and one from "queerworm" They used the DVDs as the source
I seem to recall the quality ranged from "slightly " beter than the DVDs to "low level "HD" quality to my eyes. .
The first few minutes of Emissary cast to my 50 inch TV screen will be the real test for me. To date , whether it's DVD , upscale or streaming I have yet to see those scenes in anything other than subpar video quality.
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Question about the legality issue, and perhaps my information is wrong or out of date but I seem to recall when the era of "backing up your DVDs" hit its peak , it was pointed out that possessing a backed up digital version of your own DVD content was perfectly legal . What wasn't legal however was using a program to circumvent the copy protection encoding within a disc . if that's still the case, I would assume this would still be a legal hurdle in 2025 no?
It was never a legal hurdle in practice. No one has ever been prosecuted for using software such as MakeMKV, StreamFab, yt-dlp, or m3u8DL-RE (all of which are legally distributed) to circumvent encryption in order to create personal backups of legally-owned media, and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act is illegitimate because it was specifically designed to revoke the legal right to create personal backups.
Also, lossy backups can be created without decryption by recording the output in real time using a capture card or software such as OBS, Audials, or PlayOn.
LaserDiscs have no anticopy protection.
Also, lossy backups can be created without decryption by recording the output in real time using a capture card or software such as OBS, Audials, or PlayOn.
LaserDiscs have no anticopy protection.
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Just listening to an Inglorious Treksperts podcast from November. People may remember that a year ago Mark Altman reported that a DS9 remaster was in the early stages. He now says that all work has ceased as a result of the merger.
So who knows if it will ever start again, or if Paramount will just wait until a cheap AI upscale becomes viable. I am betting on the latter.
So who knows if it will ever start again, or if Paramount will just wait until a cheap AI upscale becomes viable. I am betting on the latter.
Episode and timecode, please?
awesome project. Hope it gets to the finish line.
I'll be cheering it on, while also hoping Paramount gives Star Trek DS9 and others the TOS/TNG Remaster treatment quality, access and resources.
As a question to all who are reading this: What's the quality that is currently available to watch DS9 in in you opinion and way, no whether it's digital or physical medium.
I'll be cheering it on, while also hoping Paramount gives Star Trek DS9 and others the TOS/TNG Remaster treatment quality, access and resources.
As a question to all who are reading this: What's the quality that is currently available to watch DS9 in in you opinion and way, no whether it's digital or physical medium.
I think if you're only talking about the official releases, the consensus is that the laserdisc releases are somewhat better than the Region 1 DVDs, which in turn are better than the PAL (Region 2/4) DVDs.
But given that Laserdiscs only cover the first five seasons, and most people don't have access to them, the Region 1 DVDs are arguably the "best" available.
YMMV, but I don't think the DVDs are substantially better than streaming options, so if that's all you can access, I don't think it's worth going out of your way to obtain the DVDs. Some have suggested the Paramount+ versions look better than Netflix and download options, but I'm not convinced there's much perceptible difference on a standard TV. And if you're watching on a tablet or computer it really doesn't matter anyway.
But given that Laserdiscs only cover the first five seasons, and most people don't have access to them, the Region 1 DVDs are arguably the "best" available.
YMMV, but I don't think the DVDs are substantially better than streaming options, so if that's all you can access, I don't think it's worth going out of your way to obtain the DVDs. Some have suggested the Paramount+ versions look better than Netflix and download options, but I'm not convinced there's much perceptible difference on a standard TV. And if you're watching on a tablet or computer it really doesn't matter anyway.
Vertag's DVD upscales of both Deep Space Nine and Voyager.
Only the first three seasons of Deep Space Nine and four of Voyager look better on LaserDisc because LaserDisc is a composite format, and these seasons were edited on a composite pipeline and later poorly converted to component. The later seasons look better on DVD because they were edited on a component pipeline and DVD is a component format.
Fortunately, this means that the last two seasons of each show not being on LaserDisc doesn't matter at all since they look better on DVD. Unfortunately, the American NTSC LaserDiscs used a source with less generation loss than the Japanese NTSC-J LaserDiscs but end with 3x14 - "Heart of Stone" (except for 3x26 - "Adversary" in a compilation), so Japanese LaserDiscs of the remaining eleven composite episodes are the best available source. The Japanese LDs have occasional hardcoded subtitles which can be manually removed by masking them with a small color-corrected portion of the DVD image. (For Voyager, only the pilot is on American LD, but all its composite episodes are on Japanese LD.)
The LaserDiscs also reveal more detail as direct RF captures from a Domesday Duplicator than if played normally, and even better when multiple discs are stacked using software which merges the captures to eliminate frame dropouts caused by physical flaws in individual discs.
I'm curious to know if hypothetically the master tapes were used for an upscale , how it would compare to this partialy sourced LaserDisc upscale vs the current previous upscales vs the dvds vs Paramount plus's apparently cleaner streaming versions.
So far I would rate them ( to my eye):
Previous upscales and recent Paramount plus virtually identical
Then R1 DVDs next as slightly to somewhat worse quality and Netflix/itunes/other streaming being dead last.
So far I would rate them ( to my eye):
Previous upscales and recent Paramount plus virtually identical
Then R1 DVDs next as slightly to somewhat worse quality and Netflix/itunes/other streaming being dead last.
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A new SD transfer of the master tapes would look better than LaserDisc for the composite episodes and DVD for component episodes.
Paramount+ actually does not look better, which is why upscalers don't use it as a source.
Paramount+ actually does not look better, which is why upscalers don't use it as a source.
Paramount+
PAL DVD
NTSC DVD
NTSC DVD Upscale
NTSC LaserDisc
NTSC LaserDisc Upscale
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