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DS9: Redefined 2.0 - The Ultimate DS9 Upscale Project

What would the "old print" be in this case? I don't think they were assembling workprints by this point, all the editing was on tape.
The story was that when Babylon 5 was being produced, conformed film masters were created in parallel to the digital video masters, for international distribution in countries that were still broadcasting TV off of film prints rather than using digital video tape or satellite downlinks. (I'm trying to track down the original source for this, but it's been over four years, and I'm pretty sure it was in a Tweet from JMS, which have become a lot more difficult to Google since the takeover; even the links I find aren't resolving, either because JMS deleted them or because the website is broken).

Supporting evidence includes the fact that the blu-rays seem to have more film-grain than the DVDs or prior SD releases, suggesting that they were scanned from a second-generation film copy and not the original negatives, every episode includes a "bumper" with the show's title between one of the act breaks, and the low quality of the VFX/composite shots (not just the motion judder, but also exaggerated contrast) suggesting an SD-to-film-to-HD pipeline rather than being sourced from the SD masters directly. Plus, the remaster was a total surprise; it just suddenly appeared on streaming and digital stores one day, and no one involved with the original show had had any idea that it was coming; a proper effort like what happened with TOS or TNG (or even a show like Seinfeld, which is about to get a re-release on 4K disc) would've taken years with a lot of people involved, and someone probably would've heard about it. "Remastering" Babylon 5 off of these existing film cuts would've been a lot easier, and taken a small team without a lot of support. Considering the errors that initially appeared, like whole missing acts from some episodes, they probably barely had editing equipment or quality assurance checks.

I think the inclusion of the commercial bumpers is proof enough that this was an old broadcast master, there's no possible reason anyone would incorporate those into a new reconstruction of the show, and failing to remove them shows a tremendous lack of support and effort in the project. The bare-bones blu-ray release also counts against the idea that this project involved the expense of going back to the original negatives and re-scanning them and reediting the episodes from scratch; it's be like serving a thousand-dollar kobe steak wrapped in old newspapers.

On the plus side(?), it means there's still low-hanging fruit for another on-the-cheap "remaster," this time sourcing visual effects and composite shots from something closer to the original (the digital tape masters, or even laserdiscs, for some episodes), plus clipping out the commercial bumpers, fixing the incorrect colors and styling on the on-screen text that was added for this release, and maybe even cleaning up the damaged audio tracks on the episode "Into the Fire."

Still, it's better than what happened to poor Stargate; their blu-rays had their audio tracks all screwed up, and the episodes that were originally mastered in HD were run through an unnecessary sharpening filter anyway because some dipshit in charge liked it better that way.

EDIT: Also, I resent the use of the term "obsessive," especially considering where we are and what the subject of the thread is, and that there's a 70/30 chance I'm the person being referenced.
 
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An extremely obsessive Babylon 5 fan on Reddit was insistent that an old print was used instead of the negatives, but I guess not. The official story is that the negatives were used, but I don't think it looks as good as the Next Generation remaster, even when there's no CGI onscreen.
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The story was that when Babylon 5 was being produced, conformed film masters were created in parallel to the digital video masters, for international distribution in countries that were still broadcasting TV off of film prints rather than using digital video tape or satellite downlinks. (I'm trying to track down the original source for this, but it's been over four years, and I'm pretty sure it was in a Tweet from JMS, which have become a lot more difficult to Google since the takeover; even the links I find aren't resolving, either because JMS deleted them or because the website is broken).

I know with SEAQUEST, they used film out prints from when the show was originally assembled to help make the HD transfer which then became the Blu-ray releases, so there is an example of a contemporary show at the time.
 
The story was that when Babylon 5 was being produced, conformed film masters were created in parallel to the digital video masters, for international distribution in countries that were still broadcasting TV off of film prints rather than using digital video tape or satellite downlinks. (I'm trying to track down the original source for this, but it's been over four years, and I'm pretty sure it was in a Tweet from JMS, which have become a lot more difficult to Google since the takeover; even the links I find aren't resolving, either because JMS deleted them or because the website is broken).
Interesting... sounds just about plausible, although surely there can't have been many TV stations likely to buy the show in the mid-1990s that wouldn't have been broadcasting from video?

I know a bit about this from the Doctor Who missing episode saga - part of the reason that so many prints were destroyed is because the BBC simply couldn't sell film prints to anyone by the late seventies. Although these were mainly black and white prints.

Either way, does seem plausible that B5 may have had film prints that were the source for the remaster.
 
I resent the use of the term "obsessive," especially considering where we are and what the subject of the thread is, and that there's a 70/30 chance I'm the person being referenced.
Haha! Why? What’s wrong with being obsessive? I was impressed with the deep knowledge presented.

I think you’re right because the remaster appeared suddenly and doesn’t look nearly as good as the Star Trek remasters, although only a handful of episodes have those bumpers on the streaming release, whereas they’re on all episodes of the Blu-ray release, which I don’t understand at all.
 
I'll wait for the official HD versions of DS9 and VOY. I'm convinced they'll happen eventually.

Hope springs eternal. Maybe I'm just in a Debbie Downer mood, but I'm pretty convinced if they haven't done it yet, it's just not gonna get done.
 
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Hope springs eternal. Maybe I'm just in a Debbie Downer mood, but I'm pretty convinced if they haven't done it yet, it's just not gonna get done.
There are two reasons why I think they'll have re-masters:

First Reason: I think they're holding out because they're waiting for the process to become cheap enough and fast enough, so they don't have to go through as a laborious or expensive of a process as with TNG.

Second Reason: 10 years ago, it would've made no sense to re-master DS9 or VOY in HD because they would've done it to Blu-Ray and depended on that format as the main money-maker for them. Today, it would be done directly for Streaming, with Blu-Rays as an added bonus. Low Blu-Ray sales won't matter because they wouldn't be the primary market.

At this point, Blu-Ray is just a more successful version of Laser Disc.
 
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There are two reasons why I think they'll have re-masters:

First Reason: I think they're holding out because they're waiting for the process to become cheap enough and fast enough, so they don't have to go through as a laborious or expensive of a process as with TNG.

Second Reason: 10 years ago, it would've made no sense to re-master DS9 or VOY in HD because they would've done it to Blu-Ray and depended on that format as the main money-maker for them. Today, it would be done directly for Streaming, with Blu-Rays as an added bonus. Low Blu-Ray sales won't matter because they wouldn't be the primary market.

At this point, Blu-Ray is just a more successful version of Laser Disc.
One of the main problems is fans wised up to Paramount Home Video going to the well too many times, like releasing the TOS (minus TMP) and TNG films twice on DVD. I'm sure there are many people here who paid almost $90 a season when TNG and DS9 were first released on DVD (another pricey early release was THE X-FILES, which also hit the $90 per season mark). By the time TNG was coming out on Blu-ray, most people knew to just be patient and prices would eventually fall. I ended up getting the complete TNG and XF series on Blu-ray each for like $70.

Software has been developed that automatically links scanned raw footage with previously edited SD masters. This was used a few years ago for Paramount's own MACGYVER and the incredibly cerebral and intelligent BAYWATCH. The salt mine in Kansas with the film archive is said to have onsite film scanning suites. I wouldn't be surprised if costs have come down to the point that Paramount could justify scanning the DS9 and VGR footage just for digital archival purposes. My main concern is they might not go to all the effort to locate missing footage, and we'd end up with far more than 3 minutes of upconverted SD videotape. Granted maybe by then James Cameron's friends at Park Road Post will have perfected their AI upscaling (for those unaware, there's a major internet controversy about ALIENS and TRUE LIES being a little too Skynet-y in their 4K remasters).
 
My main concern is they might not go to all the effort to locate missing footage, and we'd end up with far more than 3 minutes of upconverted SD videotape.
This is what I'm expecting will probably happen, since I really do think the only way they'll do it is if it's on the cheap.

This was used a few years ago for [...] the incredibly cerebral and intelligent BAYWATCH.
Everyone needs a test dummy. ;)
 
There are two reasons why I think they'll have re-masters:

First Reason: I think they're holding out because they're waiting for the process to become cheap enough and fast enough, so they don't have to go through as a laborious or expensive of a process as with TNG.

Second Reason: 10 years ago, it would've made no sense to re-master DS9 or VOY in HD because they would've done it to Blu-Ray and depended on that format as the main money-maker for them. Today, it would be done directly for Streaming, with Blu-Rays as an added bonus. Low Blu-Ray sales won't matter because they wouldn't be the primary market.

At this point, Blu-Ray is just a more successful version of Laser Disc.

First reason is solid. If it’s cheap enough and quick enough to turn a profit, how could they not?

As far as the second reason goes though, they are already making their money by just bundling the SD stuff along with the more commercially valuable TOSR and TNGR. P+ is still carrying the SD versions of VOY and DS9 and for countries that don’t have P+ (like Vietnam where I live), Netflix still carries them.

I think if a streamer demanded it, they’d do it, but why remaster something for streaming when streamers don’t seem to care that much?
 
As far as the second reason goes though, they are already making their money by just bundling the SD stuff along with the more commercially valuable TOSR and TNGR. P+ is still carrying the SD versions of VOY and DS9 and for countries that don’t have P+ (like Vietnam where I live), Netflix still carries them.

I think if a streamer demanded it, they’d do it, but why remaster something for streaming when streamers don’t seem to care that much?
I'm sure they'd do their own inhouse market research. If there are enough people interested, it would give them a reason to revisit DS9 and VOY yet again when they wouldn't have before. I'm re-watching DS9, and I already re-watched VOY. In theory, once I'm done with the DS9 Re-Watch, I'm done watching both DS9 and VOY. If I watch them again, it'll be in bits and pieces, here and there, just like before. If they re-master DS9 and VOY, then I might just decide, "Hey! I want to re-watch both series again in their entirety!" If I think it, someone else thinks it, and so on. If enough people are prompted to re-watch both series again in full, especially over the long term, then they've made their money back.

The other thing is the amount of New Trek being made has been going downward since 2023. This era's already peaked in terms of output. If they eventually get down to only one series, that's 10 episodes per year out of 52 weeks, meaning that for more than 80% of the year, there's no new content. If it takes more than a year for a season to come out, then it becomes even worse. Star Trek isn't 1883 or Tulsa King or anything like that, but I bet enough people are subscribed to Paramount+ mainly because of Star Trek so that Paramount+ would notice the hit if a large amount of Trekkies started unsubscribing if they weren't interested in what was left. Remastering DS9 and VOY would keep those people around a little bit longer. If we get DS9-R and VOY-R, it'll be during a dry spell.
 
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Yeah, I did wonder if a remaster is slightly more likely as it would be a cheaper way to get “new” content out.

If they are smart, they could make it an event for fans. Take all of DS9 and VGR off P+ for a few months in the run-up and then release one episode of each show every week, a bit like how TOS-R was originally released back in the day. It could help to drive social media engagement and generate interest.
 
before. If they re-master DS9 and VOY, then I might just decide, "Hey! I want to re-watch both series again in their entirety!" If I think it, someone else thinks it, and so on.

I’m basically one of the people that thinks *exactly* this. I watched both shows once about 15 years ago in their entirety and the only way I would revisit either is if they were remastered.

I’m not willing to sit through fourteen seasons of sludge, but the day that any potential remaster drops… I’d be right there and ready to go.
 
If I think it, someone else thinks it, and so on. If enough people are prompted to re-watch both series again in full, especially over the long term, then they've made their money back.
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I’m not willing to sit through fourteen seasons of sludge, but the day that any potential remaster drops… I’d be right there and ready to go.
Streaming is especially brutal on SD shows with all the extra compression they do to drive the bitrate down to like 0.33mbps, when they should at least be upconverting to HD before uploading so the picture looks the best it could and gains a bit extra color.

If Paramount burned the raw DS9 and VGR footage tomorrow Kubrick style and said now a HD remaster is never happening, it'd almost be worth it to go to Salvation Army or Goodwill and pick up an old CRT TV. There really is a major difference between watching something from the 1990s mastered on video and a DVD of a recent film.
The other thing is the amount of New Trek being made has been going downward since 2023. This era's already peaked in terms of output. If they eventually get down to only one series, that's 10 episodes per year out of 52 weeks, meaning that for more than 80% of the year, there's no new content. If it takes more than a year for a season to come out, then it becomes even worse. Star Trek isn't 1883 or Tulsa King or anything like that, but I bet enough people are subscribed to Paramount+ mainly because of Star Trek so that Paramount+ would notice the hit if a large amount of Trekkies started unsubscribing if they weren't interested in what was left. Remastering DS9 and VOY would keep those people around a little bit longer. If we get DS9-R and VOY-R, it'll be during a dry spell.
We know from public filings that seasons of PICARD were coming in at $100 million. The budget for 3-4 NuTrek episodes could then cover remastering an entire series. Paramount+ already paid out to remaster the TMP directors cut, so the precedent is already there.
 
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Would be interesting to know how much the TMP remaster cost.

I suspect it was a labour of love for a lot of the people who worked on it, so Paramount got a lot of value out of them.
 
I wonder what Paramount+'s source is, because it doesn't have that green tint the DVDs have, but it's also not as vibrant as the Laser Disc.
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Streaming is especially brutal on SD shows with all the extra compression they do to drive the bitrate down to like 0.33mbps, when they should at least be upconverting to HD before uploading so the picture looks the best it could and gains a bit extra color.

If Paramount burned the raw DS9 and VGR footage tomorrow Kubrick style and said now a HD remaster is never happening, it'd almost be worth it to go to Salvation Army or Goodwill and pick up an old CRT TV. There really is a major difference between watching something from the 1990s mastered on video and a DVD of a recent film.
I watch DS9 on Paramount+ on a 4K TV and it doesn't bother me at all. There's no 'sludge', and there's no ghosting like I get on DVD or watching on cable TV. I don't know what Paramount did with DS9, but it looks fine.

Voyager though, looks just as bad as the DVDs.
 
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There was some speculation that the P+ streams are a new encode of the masters, as it looks slightly better than the Netflix versions.
 
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