DS9 on blu ray?

[Admiral Bear]

CBS are very cleverly playing themselves off against the fans. I have to hand it to them on that score.

"We really want to remaster DS9, but it's all about the finances, so go and buy the TNG Blu-rays". . .blah blah blah.

It's just pure and simple blackmail. As I said to Bill from TDB on Facebook, if DS9 is remastered, CBS will have to do it out of love for the show, and because it wants to keep the source material in the best shape for future generations, and to hell with the financial cost. Anything they get back via Blu sales and selling to TV/Streaming will be a bonus.

Now, you'd think that with all of CBS' pro DS9 bleating, and taking the above in to account, that it would have already green lit the project for an initial cost of say $20m, which is small change to a company like CBS. It knows full well that TNG on Blu will likely never make it's costs back regardless of sales, and yet it's making all these comments about how much it wants to give DS9 the treatment.

CBS, just STFU and do it.

 

[BillJ]

Well, not really "found as much as they have". There hasn't been any mass evaluation of what's there and what's not. The would only happen if a project is green-lit.

That seems backwards. Wouldn't they need to evaluate what they have in order to create a preliminary budget for the project? CBS would want cost projections before greenlighting such a project.

 

[dub]

CBS are very cleverly playing themselves off against the fans. I have to hand it to them on that score.

"We really want to remaster DS9, but it's all about the finances, so go and buy the TNG Blu-rays". . .blah blah blah.

It's just pure and simple blackmail. As I said to Bill from TDB on Facebook, if DS9 is remastered, CBS will have to do it out of love for the show, and because it wants to keep the source material in the best shape for future generations, and to hell with the financial cost. Anything they get back via Blu sales and selling to TV/Streaming will be a bonus.

Now, you'd think that with all of CBS' pro DS9 bleating, and taking the above in to account, that it would have already green lit the project for an initial cost of say $20m, which is small change to a company like CBS. It knows full well that TNG on Blu will likely never make it's costs back regardless of sales, and yet it's making all these comments about how much it wants to give DS9 the treatment.

CBS, just STFU and do it.

Preach!

 

[benjaminh]

My guess is that CBS made a nice profit on the TNG project. Not huge, but nice.

In the long run, I think they would make a profit on DS9 as well. DS9 has already shown that it can gather new fans even in crummy SD. In HD the audience for Deep Space Nine would grow. I think they would also need a clever push to really introduce new fans to the show. The fan-made trailer that I posted a few pages back gives an idea of what might be done.

Star Trek fans are collectors. Where fans of others TV shows won't buy the physical media, Trek fans will. That obviously a plus for this.

I do understand why it's on the bubble, but I do wish that CBS would just move forward with it asap. They have moved from the realm of teasing and cajoling the fans to beginning to annoy some of them.

Momentum is important. They should use the momentum of the triumphant completion of TNG to launch DS9.

One more point that's been made before but is worth making again is this: to make a show like this today, with huge sets, a strong ensemble cast, top writers, good guest stars, award-winning make-up and special effects, etc., would cost about $3 million an episode in today's dollars. Given that 176 episodes made that amounts to a half billion dollar asset. It is one that paid its way already with commercials in the 1990s, DVD sales in the early 2000s and streaming in recent years. But the days of SD programming are running out. And to just let the HD assets sit in a salt mine unused is such a waste.

Spending $20 million to save c. $500 million dollars of brand-name sci fi programming seems like a good deal, and a wise long-term investment.

 

[BillJ]

DS9 has already shown that it can gather new fans even in crummy SD.

Not to bash the show, but I haven't seen any indication that this is more prevalent with DS9 than it is with Voyager or Enterprise. The opposite may actually be the case as Voyager seems to be more popular on Netflix.

The question for CBS is: will we make more money off of remastering DS9 vs. using those funds on another project? In any given year, CBS does have a budget and its executives have to make the best use of that budget they can.

 

[Squiggy]

My guess is that CBS made a nice profit on the TNG project. Not huge, but nice.

Define "nice".

In the long run, I think they would make a profit on DS9 as well.

How? It's going to cost several times more and you're throwing it to a fanbase that is objectively smaller.

DS9 has already shown that it can gather new fans even in crummy SD.

It hasn't. Voyager has more Netflix ratings than DS9. Using Emissary's ratings and extrapolating that out 20 years is pretty worthless.

In HD the audience for Deep Space Nine would grow.

Maybe. But if you haven't heard about DS9 in the past two decades it's doubtful that a limited ad push for an HD set would bring that many more people into the fold.

I think they would also need a clever push to really introduce new fans to the show.

Remastering, while impressive...isn't really that clever. If you think that CBS-D is going to get a marketing budget on top of whatever budget they would require to actually do the work then I have a bridge to sell you.

The fan-made trailer that I posted a few pages back gives an idea of what might be done.

Yes. It can be done. But I bet that fan did it for free with zero expectation of ever getting anything out of it.

Star Trek fans are collectors.

I'm a fan. I haven't collected anything since the early 90s.

Where fans of others TV shows won't buy the physical media, Trek fans will.

"Where fans of others TV shows won't buy the VHS, Trek fans will."

Physical media is quickly becoming an endangered species. Streaming is the wave of the future!

That obviously a plus for this.

It's also a totally made up statistic.

I do understand why it's on the bubble, but I do wish that CBS would just move forward with it asap.

Wishes don't make money.

They have moved from the realm of teasing and cajoling the fans to beginning to annoy some of them.

How? They've never teased anything. They've laid it out for everyone. "We want to do it but you need to buy more TNG."

That means if TNG doesn't sell better, you're not going to see DS9.

Momentum is important.

Yes. And you can't move a larger object (more work) at more speed (same profit) with the same force (TNG's sales)

They should use the momentum of the triumphant completion of TNG to launch DS9.

What momentum? Outside of here and Trekcore (which I have bookmarked because of teh awesum), there's no chatter. I bet you one episode of TNG-HD on BBC-A gets more views than any season sales' numbers.

One more point that's been made before but is worth making again is this: to make a show like this today, with huge sets, a strong ensemble cast, top writers, good guest stars, award-winning make-up and special effects, etc., would cost about $3 million an episode in today's dollars. Given that 176 episodes made that amounts to a half billion dollar asset.

Yes. Ford also made a bunch of money on the Model-A, but they're not still making parts for it.

It is one that paid its way already with commercials in the 1990s, DVD sales in the early 2000s and streaming in recent years. But the days of SD programming are running out. And to just let the HD assets sit in a salt mine unused is such a waste.

How much milk can you get out of a dead cow?

Spending $20 million to save c. $500 million dollars of brand-name sci fi programming seems like a good deal, and a wise long-term investment.

You wouldn't be saving it. You'd be reanimating it with questionable results. It might escape the castle and scare the villagers.

 

[BillJ]

What momentum? Outside of here and Trekcore (which I have bookmarked because of teh awesum), there's no chatter. I bet you one episode of TNG-HD on BBC-A gets more views than any season sales' numbers.

The way its being handled by BBC America really has me scratching my head? They showed season one in HD a couple months ago, four episodes a night on Tuesdays. Then, nothing.

Either there are some weird contractual stipulations or the cost of the show in HD wasn't worth it (ratings) to BBC America. If it's the latter, it could be a bad sign about the success of TNG Remastered and the likelyhood of any other Trek series getting the treatment.

 

[MacLeod]

CBS are very cleverly playing themselves off against the fans. I have to hand it to them on that score.

"We really want to remaster DS9, but it's all about the finances, so go and buy the TNG Blu-rays". . .blah blah blah.

It's just pure and simple blackmail. As I said to Bill from TDB on Facebook, if DS9 is remastered, CBS will have to do it out of love for the show, and because it wants to keep the source material in the best shape for future generations, and to hell with the financial cost. Anything they get back via Blu sales and selling to TV/Streaming will be a bonus.

If buisness did that they would soon go out of buisness. They have to crunch the numbers and at worst break even on the return vs the cost. Sure it might take 20 years for the investment to see a return bu that would still be a return.

In some respects sales from DVD/BR should be viewed as the bonus. As in some respects thats a one time return, whilst TV/streaming rights can return multiple times.

Here in the UK, each series of ST is virtually stripped daily M-F, and at times the same series has been on multiple stations.

 

[FrontierTrek]

That seems backwards. Wouldn't they need to evaluate what they have in order to create a preliminary budget for the project? CBS would want cost projections before greenlighting such a project.

Nope. Projections are extrapolated. To itemize every scene file and model texture would be unfeasible for a financial forecast. Just like going through all the TNG film beforehand to make sure everything was accounted for would have been impractical.

 

[Squiggy]

What momentum? Outside of here and Trekcore (which I have bookmarked because of teh awesum), there's no chatter. I bet you one episode of TNG-HD on BBC-A gets more views than any season sales' numbers.

The way its being handled by BBC America really has me scratching my head? They showed season one in HD a couple months ago, four episodes a night on Tuesdays. Then, nothing.

It looks like they're airing the series in order. AGT was on Saturday and Sunday they picked back up with EaF, which is in HD...and all subsequent season 1 airings are in HD.

Maybe they'll at S2 at this pass, and then S3 at the next pass, and so on, and so on...

As far as the cost, I'm sure whatever contract they signed to air HD was for the entire series, not just a full season (unless some suit at Broadcast Centre got the American and British definitions of "series" confused).

They're probably airing what CBS-D will let them. I don't think CBS would dole it out a season at a time.

 

[dub]

DS9 has already shown that it can gather new fans even in crummy SD.

It hasn't. Voyager has more Netflix ratings than DS9.

Just because Voyager has more doesn't mean the DS9 has none.

And let's be clear - "ratings" on Netflix is simply the number of Netflix subscribers who have clicked the stars to "rate" the title. It doesn't translate to anything more than that. It doesn't translate to view count on Netflix, or even recent views. In fact, you can search for something on Netflix and say "I remember watching that in 1968 when I was a kid. It sucked." And then click to give it 1 star. Or "I grew up watching this! It was great!" And give it 5 stars. And you can do that without watching it at all. Or, "Dude, I love Star Trek!" 5 stars, and they might have been referring to the franchise itself, a specific movie, we don't know. Again, they don't have to watch anything to "rate" it. It doesn't take much effort. Just hover over the title and click the stars. That's it.

What does take more effort is actually writing a review. You have to have enough interest to hover over the title, click "more info," then scroll down past all of the season 1 episodes to see the reviews, then find the button that says "write a review." And then you actually have to take time to write it out. And here are those current numbers for Netflix:

TNG 907 member reviews
ENT 865 member reviews
DS9 723 member reviews
VOY 583 member reviews
TOS 410 member reviews

Interesting? Sure. But still, that doesn't mean these people actually watched the show on Netflix. We don't have access to those numbers. And those view counts and stats would be the numbers that would have any real weight at this point.

And even if we did have numbers for Netflix, there are other streaming services out there that would need to be counted like Hulu and Amazon to really be accurate when it comes to total streaming views.

In HD the audience for Deep Space Nine would grow.

Maybe. But if you haven't heard about DS9 in the past two decades it's doubtful that a limited ad push for an HD set would bring that many more people into the fold.

It's doubtful based on what? Do you have some stats about Star Trek marketing efforts for selling blu-rays and how well they worked? Don't underestimate the power of marketing. Especially when it comes to a franchise that's being revived in a big way.

I think they would also need a clever push to really introduce new fans to the show.

Remastering, while impressive...isn't really that clever. If you think that CBS-D is going to get a marketing budget on top of whatever budget they would require to actually do the work then I have a bridge to sell you.

Do you have any evidence that marketing wouldn't be part of the budget they would receive for this project?

Star Trek fans are collectors.

I'm a fan. I haven't collected anything since the early 90s.

You're one fan.

They have moved from the realm of teasing and cajoling the fans to beginning to annoy some of them.

How? They've never teased anything. They've laid it out for everyone. "We want to do it but you need to buy more TNG."

That means if TNG doesn't sell better, you're not going to see DS9.

Or it could mean, "some of us want to see if hanging this carrot out there will get Trek fans to buy more blu-rays." We have zero certain knowledge about their motives behind saying buy one, get the other. And if you always take everything every person who "speaks for Star Trek" says at face value, I have a bridge to sell YOU.

I do understand why it's on the bubble, but I do wish that CBS would just move forward with it asap.

Wishes don't make money.

Yeah, wishes are desires. He's a fan writing about his desire to see DS9 on Blu ray. Can you at least allow him THAT??? Jeeesh dude.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctM3U1SOVQg[/yt]

 

[Squiggy]

It's doubtful based on what?

Um, history. What's currently happening. What's the current TNG marketing budget? It won't be that much.

Do you have some stats about Star Trek marketing efforts for selling blu-rays and how well they worked?

Yes. What they're doing now is producing limited sucess. Spending more money on a franchise that will make them less money and then pumping more marketing into that is just a way to make even less money.

Don't underestimate the power of marketing. Especially when it comes to a franchise that's being revived in a big way.

I'm not underestimating marketing (it's my background). But an ad camaign isn't magic. Plus, most of that marketing would just be preaching to the choir. They'd already know...so what's the point? What other media would you advertise in? Buy a hell-a block of GoogleAds for anyone who searches "Star Trek"?

It's a 20 year old franchise. Do you think that if ABC announced they'd be remastering Family Matters (the number 15 show from 1990) there'd suddenly be a demand for Urkel?

Demand has to exist first. There simply isn't enough. Marketing wouldn't make a bunch of people want to see DS9-HD anymore than it would for old Sliders episodes.

Do you have any evidence that marketing wouldn't be part of the budget they would receive for this project?

I didn't say no marketing, just very limited.

You're one fan.

I'm also a fan in the target demographic. I'm the dream consumer for the remastered sets. I grew up worshiping TNG, still watch even the bad episodes when I see them on air. I'm 34, male, with disposable income and tech savy.

I'm waiting for Netflix.

Or it could mean, "some of us want to see if hanging this carrot out there will get Trek fans to buy more blu-rays."

It's a hail-mary pass. It's also a nice way of deflecting blame and damage control for if and when they don't remaster the other series. It's a completely valid reason not to as well.

We have zero certain knowledge about their motives behind saying buy one, get the other.

It's Hollywood. The motive is money.

And if you always take everything every person who "speaks for Star Trek" says at face value, I have a bridge to sell YOU.

Seeing as how the people who actually "speak for Star Trek" isn't speaking (which should be enough evidence that people aren't happy), it's just another sign that it isn't going well.

Of course, Roddenberry's reanimated corpse could by a 30 minute block of TV time on all the major networks and say "I NEVER BLESSED THIS!" as he burns all the film stock and people would still not be convinced.

Yeah, wishes are desires. He's a fan writing about his desire to see DS9 on Blu ray. Can you at least allow him THAT??? Jeeesh dude.

I wasn't aware nothing could be challenged in here. Here's a bunch of puppies lest I offend anyone's delicate sensibilities.

(I couldn't find a DS9 related puppy picture)

 

[Admiral Bear]

Spending $20 million to save c. $500 million dollars of brand-name sci fi programming seems like a good deal, and a wise long-term investment.

Amen to that. Echos exactly what I said earlier about spending chump change to save 180 odd episodes for ever.

 

[Tracer Bullet]

What momentum? Outside of here and Trekcore (which I have bookmarked because of teh awesum), there's no chatter. I bet you one episode of TNG-HD on BBC-A gets more views than any season sales' numbers.

The way its being handled by BBC America really has me scratching my head? They showed season one in HD a couple months ago, four episodes a night on Tuesdays. Then, nothing.

Either there are some weird contractual stipulations or the cost of the show in HD wasn't worth it (ratings) to BBC America. If it's the latter, it could be a bad sign about the success of TNG Remastered and the likelyhood of any other Trek series getting the treatment.

Looking at cable ratings that I could find, the top 50 tops out at around 500K viewers. So we know that BBC America showings of TNG are getting fewer than that.

 

[Squiggy]

Admittedly old, looks like TNG was getting about 140k viewers a showing in 2010.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

CBS KNOW we want DS9 - and what's more, THEY want it too. A lot of the execs there are so passionate about Star Trek, it's crazy.

So basically CBS has come a long way since the story Doug Drexler told of the CBS exec that hated Star Trek with a passion and called for the bulldozing of sets, props, etc.

Cool. Maybe not cool enough to get DS9 in HD, but cool.

 

[Salinga]

So basically CBS has come a long way since the story Doug Drexler told of the CBS exec that hated Star Trek with a passion and called for the bulldozing of sets, props, etc.

You mean when the ENT sets were destroyed? That was Paramount.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Well that explains the film treatment on Blu-ray then.

 

[BillJ]

So basically CBS has come a long way since the story Doug Drexler told of the CBS exec that hated Star Trek with a passion and called for the bulldozing of sets, props, etc.

You mean when the ENT sets were destroyed? That was Paramount.

CBS was the company that cancelled Enterprise.

 

[drmick]

There are quite a few modern shows that have achieved critical acclaim, but that have eventually been cancelled due to falling viewing figures.

I remember a CW exec commenting during season 2 of Nikita that it was a good show, but not achieving the desired figures.

Likewise, and obviously, there have been dire shows, that continue to survive because of the high viewership.

I'm currently rewatching DS9 for the third time, and am now nearly halfway through season 5. The first time was at time of release, the second time in 2008. It still remains an excellent show, and established the reputation of its writers.

Surely then, there should be some sort of will, to preserve its legacy? There has to be some sort of analogous show with similar attributes from that time period? Stargate SG1? Sliders? Buffy? Have they seen HD remasters?