DS9 Novels?

[DrBashir]

So it's the face that makes it worse?

No, it's not the face. It's the fact that the guard was unconcious and unarmed.

He shot him in the head "just to be sure".

That is what makes it a war crime. How would peple react if, in WWII, the Germans simply shot all Americans instead of taking them prisoner? Since it's war does that mean that anything goes? Can we target hospitals? What if a solder rapes a woman but then kills her. Does that make it OK?

War is not a free for all, no rules.

Do not forget, if you think something is OK for a solder of your contry to do to the enemy, how would you feel if that same enemy did the same thing to one of your solders?

Not everything is black & white but there are some things that are. Not everything is shades of gray.

 

[DrBashir]

If it were up to me, this is how Bashir's story would play out. Spoiler shields on!

Spoiler: Thoughts about Bashir's future

Early on in the next bashir story he makes it clear that he knew Sarina was with Section 31 all along. He's willing to go along with her in the hope of steering Section 31 towards a more moral place.

As the story, or stories, progress we see that it's a hopeless case. Bashir is the one being steered. He's more and more taking actions that he would previously have found morally repellant but he's blind to it both by his belief that his actions are for the greater good and his love of Sarina (btw, it's made clear that it's totally an act on her part).

Ezri is charged with bringing him in and goes to Garak for advice. He goes along to advise her. When the finally locate him they soon realize that there's no way he's going to allow himself to be taken back by them. In the battle Garak realizes the hold that Sarina has on Bashir and makes her his main target, hoping he can still save his friend. As Garak kills Sarina, Bashir sees it and takes the final step off the prcipice. In the end, Bashir is killed by Ezri in a tearful and bloody farewell.

Let's see a main character take a walk on the dark side and not make their way back to the light. Not everyone does.

 

[JD]

Meh, I'd rather wait and see how the current storyline plays out before I start concerning myself with alternatives. That's another thing people really should take into consideration when it comes to both RBoE, and ZSG, IMO it's pretty obvious that what we got in both books was the beginning of a new story arc. While people might not like some of that were done in the books, it's way to early to write off the characters or the storylines.

 

[DrBashir]

No question that it's the start of a new arc. Hopefully it won't sputter out like the last DS9 one did.

What Bashir has done cannot be undone or atoned for. As long as he continues to avoid punishment for his war crime I cannot think of him as the hero of any story.

 

[Kinggodzillak]

Hearing all this isn't encouraging me any to go back to DS9 - of the two main characters left on the station, one of them now shoots unarmed people in the head?

Oh dear...

 

[DrBashir]

Yeah, but he's got a good reason for it. He's in love...

 

[DonIago]

Wow, overreaction much? He shot one person in the head while under some level of duress, it's quite possible he regrets his own action, but yet he can never ever atone for it?

We have not yet seen the repercussions of his action, so IMO people shouldn't be making assumptions as to how Bashir actually feels about it...or even whether he'd do it again given the same conditions.

I imagine the Federation is more forgiving than that.

 

[DrBashir]

A Federation that forgives war crimes is not a Federation I'd want to be in.

We saw him back at the station. He seemed pretty calm about the whole thing.

 

[DonIago]

We saw him for, what 5 minutes? Not enough time for the weight of his actions to sink in, certainly.

Also how could the Federation forgive or not forgive his actions when they aren't aware of what he did? In any event, the President herself authorized the mission to be carried out in such a manner if circumstances necessitated, so I guess you don't want to be in this Federation.

 

[DrBashir]

Yes, let's see a Federation that condones war crimes. Shooting of civilians? Bombing of hospitals? Woo hoo, the President said it's OK so let's go to town!

You were the one that thought the Federation would be forgiving and yet now you're saying that they can't forgive his actions because they don't know about them. Passing the buck so quickly it'll simply wear out.

"We're the good guys. It can't be a war crime"

How he feels about it and the likelyhood of him doing it again are irrelevent. He did it. It's done. He cannot undo it. Should we just send him on his way because he might feel a little sad about it? "Oh look, Julian's frowning. I guess that's punishment enough."

New Zealand Penal Colony or dead. Anything else is a travisty of justice.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Woo hoo, the President said it's OK so let's go to town!

George Bush Jr or Sr?

 

[F. King Daniel]

New Zeland Penal Colony or dead. Anything else is a travisty of justice.

So your ideal, moral Federation includes captial punishment?

 

[Mysterion]

New Zeland Penal Colony or dead. Anything else is a travisty of justice.

So your ideal, moral Federation includes captial punishment?

I would point out at this juncture, that the UFP (or at least Starfleet) having the death penalty was mentioned in TOS: see The Menagerie and General Order 7.

 

[Rush Limborg]

You know, sometimes I think DrBashir makes it a point to ignore the points others bring up, that refute what he says in detail. Or at least, twist them into straw men.

Sir...I directly addressed the "war crime/war atrocity" thing in my Brilliantly Impassioned Monologue, last page. Read it, address it--quote it, and address what I say. Otherwise, your endless repetitions of "War crimes! War crimes!" comes across as denial.

And of course, the "bombing a hospital" thing is a straw man. No one proposes that--no one would. Even pushing morality aside--doing so would create an incident.

Shooting an unconscious guard so that no one will be informed of your activities prevents an incident.

Ugly? Absolutely. Disturbing? Most definitely. Stretching the boundaries of conscience? Dang right.

Necessary? You bet it was.


Again--look at Kira, and what she had had to do to fight the Occupation. By your arguments, she should be sent to a penal colony--or to death row.

 

[j3067]

The part of ZSG that I liked least, or at least the part I most cringe at is the Breen woman who helped Bashir and Serina. The depictions of her being tortured to death sat the least well with me. If I were in their shoes leaving the woman to that fate is what would haunt me more than any direct action.

 

[Idran]

New Zeland Penal Colony or dead. Anything else is a travisty of justice.

So your ideal, moral Federation includes captial punishment?

I would point out at this juncture, that the UFP (or at least Starfleet) having the death penalty was mentioned in TOS: see The Menagerie and General Order 7.

It was literally mentioned as the last death penalty on the books in that episode, and according to Q&A it was no longer in effect as of 2380.

 

[zarkon]

The thing I didn't like about ZSG is that I didn't find it a fun book. The Bashir stuff was depressing, and not what I read star trek for.

Ezri was rubbish. I mean, I'd always thought her a fairly terrible character to begin with in the TV series(apart from one bit in Tacking into the Wind), but I'd hoped something interesting would be done with her, but there we go.

 

[Reanok]

I didn't like how Ezri acted towards Bashir in ZSG either I was glad she only had a few scenes in the book.Ialways liked Jadzia better than Ezri.

 

[JD]

No question that it's the start of a new arc. Hopefully it won't sputter out like the last DS9 one did.

What Bashir has done cannot be undone or atoned for. As long as he continues to avoid punishment for his war crime I cannot think of him as the hero of any story.

Yeah, but he's got a good reason for it. He's in love...

Yes, let's see a Federation that condones war crimes. Shooting of civilians? Bombing of hospitals? Woo hoo, the President said it's OK so let's go to town!

You were the one that thought the Federation would be forgiving and yet now you're saying that they can't forgive his actions because they don't know about them. Passing the buck so quickly it'll simply wear out.

"We're the good guys. It can't be a war crime"

How he feels about it and the likelyhood of him doing it again are irrelevent. He did it. It's done. He cannot undo it. Should we just send him on his way because he might feel a little sad about it? "Oh look, Julian's frowning. I guess that's punishment enough."

New Zealand Penal Colony or dead. Anything else is a travisty of justice.

Oh yeah, it's always a good sign that a discussion is going well when we start seeing posts like these.

 

[DrBashir]

You know, sometimes I think DrBashir makes it a point to ignore the points others bring up, that refute what he says in detail. Or at least, twist them into straw men.

Sir...I directly addressed the "war crime/war atrocity" thing in my Brilliantly Impassioned Monologue, last page. Read it, address it--quote it, and address what I say. Otherwise, your endless repetitions of "War crimes! War crimes!" comes across as denial.

And of course, the "bombing a hospital" thing is a straw man. No one proposes that--no one would. Even pushing morality aside--doing so would create an incident.

Shooting an unconscious guard so that no one will be informed of your activities prevents an incident.

Ugly? Absolutely. Disturbing? Most definitely. Stretching the boundaries of conscience? Dang right.

Necessary? You bet it was.


Again--look at Kira, and what she had had to do to fight the Occupation. By your arguments, she should be sent to a penal colony--or to death row.

Ah Rush, here's what you said.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as "war atrocities". War itself is the atrocity. It's an ugly, hideous thing--but when you have to fight it, you have to do what is necessary to win, and to win it as quickly as possible, so as to end said atrocity as quickly as possible.

So, there is no such thing as a war atrocity. If the point is to end a war as quickly as possible then why wouldn't you bomb hospitals? They're full of solders. The doctors are working to get them back into fighting shape so they can continue the war. Won't the war be shortened if the wounded are not allowed to heal? Denying medical treatment to the other sides solders would help depreciate their fighting force. Also, killing the doctors would make things even better for your side. You're the one that indirectly brought up bombing hospitals with your denial of the very concept of war crimes.

If war is the atrocity then is everyone who takes part in it giulty of war crimes? Or are they innocent since such a thing doesn't exist?

If Julian had brutally raped a woman he found on the station, would it make it OK if she died when the station was destroyed later? After all, she's dead. What does it matter what happened before the station was destroyed?

I guess Abu Grahb was just a party that got out of hand. Nothing to see here. It was all part of the war effort.

I guess the whole `Let`s not start an incident` went out the window when Ezri took the ship right to the station. If they really didn`t want to start an incident then Bashir & Sarina should have been considered expenible with orders to make sure their bodies couldn`t be identified if they couldn`t get out of Breen space on their own.

It would have been hilarious if the Breen had captured the Aventine, giving them a full working slipstream ship. Brilliant strategy that, sending the very thing the Breen are hoping to develop right into their lap.