DS9 ending

[Shumsky]

So I just re-watched DS9, whole series (more or less).
I must say I didn't like the very ending. Dukat vs Sisko, was so unnecessary and bothered me always. I think the series should have ended with Dominion's defeat. there where some sad moments (Damar dying, Odo leaving), some happy Ezri and Julian together, Sisko having a baby etc. It was perfect.

Dominion was the real "villain" of the whole series. We see them do bad things to characters we love. They lie, cheat, commit genocide... We pretty much hate Weyoun and female changeling and it satisfying to see them loose in the end.

But the pah-wraiths... We don't even see them do anything evil (except maybe killing Dax, but that was Dukat), we are just told they are evil and that we should not like them. They don't establish them as villains at all. I didn't care about them or that they are gonna set the whole universe on fire (which is btw. impossible since fire needs oxygen and there is non of it in space).

And to make things worse the fight between Dukat and Sisko is so anticlimactic. It's time for the great "emissary" to finally fulfill his destiny and then he just punches Dukat in the face and pushes him in the fire. He kicked Dukat's ass in less them 5 min, as always. Anyway Dukat is by this time a crazy person who got beaten by Kira and Sisko so many time it's impossible to take him seriously.

Anyway that are mine thoughts! Just needed to get them out,
anyone agrees?

Cheers

 

[Bad Thoughts]

In principle, the confrontation with the Pah Wraiths is the type of soft-core mythology that I often tolerate in movies (be it superheroes or drama). I did find the actually execution of the story to be poor. They wanted to kill Sisko and have him join the Prophets, and that was fine. The overall arc of the Pah Wraiths was executed in a stilted manner, and the fight in the Fire Caves was a little comical.

That said, I find most complaints of the the Pah Wraiths are but more bellyaching about the role of religion and spirituality in DS9 and the overall perception that DS9 contradicted Gene Rodenberry's vision. Yes, the Pah Wraiths were underdeveloped, cliche, and perhaps cheesy, but I don't mind that Behr et al tried to incorporate mythological elements in the resolution of the series.

 

[Paradise City]

In principle, the confrontation with the Pah Wraiths is the type of soft-core mythology that I often tolerate in movies (be it superheroes or drama). I did find the actually execution of the story to be poor. They wanted to kill Sisko and have him join the Prophets, and that was fine. The overall arc of the Pah Wraiths was executed in a stilted manner, and the fight in the Fire Caves was a little comical.

That said, I find most complaints of the the Pah Wraiths are but more bellyaching about the role of religion and spirituality in DS9 and the overall perception that DS9 contradicted Gene Rodenberry's vision. Yes, the Pah Wraiths were underdeveloped, cliche, and perhaps cheesy, but I don't mind that Behr et al tried to incorporate mythological elements in the resolution of the series.

I would say that religious aspect in DS9 is actually the one aspect that was broadly in line the GR's thinking.

Kira is a devout and religious individual but also a strong and intelligent woman who doesn't suffer fools gladly. So there's a respect and disbelief for religion there as ultimately the prophets are verifiable "wormhole aliens" not intrinsically any more powerful than any other mysterious non-corporeal alien.

I think they made a mistake in making Dukat so flakey and teaming him up with Winn. It just seems to be a waste of Marc Alaimo but I can understand the need for him to have a final confrontation with Sisko. I don't mind the way the war arc concluded but the rest of it suffers from the kind of writer's stumbling about that is often the scourge of trying to conclude a TV series.

 

[Terok Nor]

Everything to do with the Prophets, the Emissary, the Pah-Wraiths and religion was poorly executed and tiresome. The Emissary story should have concluded years before the finale. The Dominion had long since become the show's most important storyline. Dukat might as well have died in Season 6 because once he lost his mind he lost everything that made him a great multi-facted character and ended up as a loony villain who embodied evil.

What even was the point of Sisko being the Emissary? Couldn't the Prophets have possessed someone like Winn and killed Dukat before he unleashed the Pah-Wraiths? Sisko throwing his life, career and family away to join the Prophets and their mind numbing drivel for all eternity seems more like a punishment than a reward.

 

[Shumsky]

Yes, prophets could have just got any Bajoran to punch Dukat in the face. Was going to Earth to conceive a child with some random human really necessary?! (also apparently they know all about corporeal/linear life long before Sisko meet them!)

Don't know whose idea was, the Emissary thing, but I felt the writers where just burdened by it. They had to do something with that storryline, so they just rushed it in the last season to get it over with. :/
Nobody cared about Bajoran religion and celestial temple or whatever.... This is Star Trek!

 

[jamestyler]

I think they made a mistake in making Dukat so flakey and teaming him up with Winn. It just seems to be a waste of Marc Alaimo but I can understand the need for him to have a final confrontation with Sisko.

I don't think it was a waste at all.
Antagonistic Dukat became almost friendly round season 4, then by the opening arc of S6 everyone felt sorry for him. Putting him together with Winn was anice touch to show how far gone he was, while on her part it also showed her finally take a side between good and evil - and both of them were motivated purely out of misguided hatred of Sisko.
Some of it was poorly executed - but it was a nice rounded story with all the points hit. My only real complaint about the whole thing was that getting into the hart of the fire caves must have taken ages.
By the time Dukat and Winn have got there, and finished all that chanting, Sisko and Co had went to Cardassia, won the war AND managed to come back and go dancing.
Dodgy timing with a bit of a rushed conclusion, but the circle was complete which is more than can be said for a lot of shows.

Yes, prophets could have just got any Bajoran to punch Dukat in the face. Was going to Earth to conceive a child with some random human really necessary?! (also apparently they know all about corporeal/linear life long before Sisko meet them!)

not really - Sisko was their first encounter/discussion about linear life and due to their non-understanding of it as they live ina different ay events are either mixed around or all happening at once or...

.....well that ^ is how I explained it to my wife. It gives me brain ache

 

[urbandefault]

I always thought it should have gone out with a big production number, with Busby Berkeley-style choreography and dancing poodles and plate spinners and Chinese acrobats.

That's how you end a sci-fi show.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Fighting, camp and dance: you want the Blazing Saddles ending!

 

[Paradise City]

I don't think it was a waste at all.
Antagonistic Dukat became almost friendly round season 4, then by the opening arc of S6 everyone felt sorry for him. Putting him together with Winn was anice touch to show how far gone he was, while on her part it also showed her finally take a side between good and evil - and both of them were motivated purely out of misguided hatred of Sisko.
Some of it was poorly executed - but it was a nice rounded story with all the points hit. My only real complaint about the whole thing was that getting into the hart of the fire caves must have taken ages.
By the time Dukat and Winn have got there, and finished all that chanting, Sisko and Co had went to Cardassia, won the war AND managed to come back and go dancing.
Dodgy timing with a bit of a rushed conclusion, but the circle was complete which is more than can be said for a lot of shows.



not really - Sisko was their first encounter/discussion about linear life and due to their non-understanding of it as they live ina different ay events are either mixed around or all happening at once or...

.....well that ^ is how I explained it to my wife. It gives me brain ache

I saw these final scenes as a kind of sci-fi slapstick. Dukat and Sisko pushing and shoving each other about and then they both fall into the fire but Dukat dies and...Sisko...doesn't for some strange reason. I liked the twist when Jake was hijacked by the Pah wraiths a few episodes back. Now that was a genuinely wrenching moment but the final confrontation between Sisko, Dukat and, lol, 'Winn' are a bit hokey and rushed. I can understand why. It's hard to execute two demanding arcs at once and they stumbled with the final confrontation with Dukat.

And the prophets are wormhole aliens. That's not me saying that, that's what it says on the program.

 

[jamestyler]

Dukat could have likely ended up in the same boat as Sisko.

They fall to their death (in this reality, anyway) - the prophets take Sisko's 'soul' to their wormhole luxury result, while Dukat's ends up in a room with some dodgy red lighting and a lot of grumpy Bajorans with horns saying "Well, you buggered that right up, didn't you?"

The sci fi slaptsick-ness was always going to be a bit iffy though with the concept. The Jake/Kira episode was pretty ridiculous outwith the story - two people shooting magic beams at each other. It's guns at dawn, but the draw takes about seventeen hours. A flaming Kai, kneeling Sisko, red eyed Dukat - not sure if extending that to a full on fight scene or another light show would have helped that idea any.

It might have made it all the more satisfying if there was a build to that confrontation, if it maybe lasted a little longer, but in the end two people having a magic pillow fight with a prophet in each of their corners.... they're going to look like a pair of tits either way, so getting it over and done with and onto the point of it all worked fine with me.

Edit: Though I'll add that quickness was equally frustrating with Odo/The Founder. The cardassians switching sides was a great point to add (even if it could be seen coming a mile off - the Cardassian turn through the season made it nice and satisfying) and when the Dominions backs are against the wall it all comes down to a secret handshake? :/

 

[Lee T]

It might have made it all the more satisfying if there was a build to that confrontation, if it maybe lasted a little longer, but in the end two people having a magic pillow fight with a prophet in each of their corners.... they're going to look like a pair of tits either way, so getting it over and done with and onto the point of it all worked fine with me.

Indeed. As far as I'm concerned the biggest weakness of the final episode if the build up. They wasted a good chunk of the last season introducing Ezri, time which would have been best spent pushing the story forward. In my ideal world, jadzia died in Change of Heart and Ezri would have been introduced during the final arc of season 6. Thus leaving the whole of season 7 to tell the end of the story.

I'm not sure that would have changed much though. I wonder if the relatively poor quality of the ending compared to the show is that finishing a quasi-series long story thread was a first time for Star Trek and maybe they simply didn't find a way to do it justice (not to mention the higher ups were probably more interested in supporting the ongoing new show than helping giving the old one a nice farewell).

 

[CrazyMatt]

I thought the final episode was very.... rushed. The final battle with the Dominion/Cardassian forces should have played out over more than two hours. I also think cramming so much into the final episode regarding Sisko's real intended purpose meant that storyline was dealt with far too briefly.

 

[dub]

Best series finale of the bunch for me. DS9 had a lot to wrap up, and I think they did so nicely with some emotional punches that hit me every time. "All Good Things" ranks up there too, and is one of my favorite episodes of TNG.

 

[RoJoHen]

That whole final scene in the Fire Caves is over-the-top and cheesy.

"Now bow to me!" I'm so tired of bad guys making people bow to them. It's become so silly.

Dukat never should have turned into the Evil Pah Wraith Emissary. Dukat was always more interesting when he was kind of a good guy. While I liked Damar, I think it would have made more sense for Dukat to have been in that role in the final season. After the death of his daughter and the Dominion takeover of Cardassia, it would have been a more fitting end for him to lead the rebellion, and it would have been great to see he and Kira working together after so many years of history between them.

They could have given the Bwah ha ha Pah Wraith role to Kai Winn and basically accomplished the same story.