Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?

[CorporalClegg]

Yup. Superficially, it's an excellent episode. The dialog is sharp. The acting is fantastic ... mostly. (#FakeClues) And the drama hits all the right beats. But the intent of the episode tasks the audience to see beyond the superficial. And that's where it falls apart. And I think I could say the same for most facets of the series - including Section 31.

I think that's what season 1 of Disco got right. It starts Burnham down a similar path (albeit a less egregious one), and she's punished for it, only to face a similar situation in the end only to search for a better option. Because Star Trek farts deus ex machina like Wes Anderson farts narcissistic white people. They may be fantastic solutions, but it's a fantastic universe.

 

[Rahul]

That doesn't make it good art.

Star Trek prides itself on being 'intelligent.' But drowning itself in fallacious pablum is anything but intelligent, thus making it cheap pretense and hard to take with any amount of serious credibility.

Pale Moonlight is the perfect example of this. It presents this (rather childish) argument of 'oooh the world is a scary place where wrong and right don't exist' forcing the main character to get his hands dirty. And by "hands dirty" I mean conspire in a capital crime, completely abandoning everything the franchise stands for under the rationalization it was his only option. But that 'only option' part is rooted in a false dilemma. So not only does it abandon the ideals of the franchise, but it does so erroneously. It's basically the same reason people hate the ending of Man of Steel.

I really liked "In the pale moonlight". I like a good face-heel-turn.

I liked it when Seska turned evil on VOY. I loved it when DS9 utterly shattered the idea of Dukat redeeming himself. I loved the turn of Walter White on "Breaking Bad" from well meaning into fully evil. I liked it when Ward on "agents of shield" turned from boring square-jawed hero to utterly psychopath. I loved to hate Joffrey on "Game of Thrones" ever more revealing his true evil. And it was absolutely delightful to see Sisko being overcome by the dark tendencies he always had in himself and become the true villain.

My disappointment came from the next episode, where everything was suddenly reset to status quo in a reset that would make VOY jealous, and everyone suddenly forgot that Sisko now is an accomplice to murder, and not just him, but the entire Federation is suddenly able to be blackmailed by a shady Cardassians spy/tailor.

Really. After that episode, Garak had the entire Federation right at its balls, and Sisko a war criminal, and everyone somehow forgot about that.

 

[fireproof78]

Sadly, Star Trek is very bad at consequences and follow up.

 

[EnderAKH]

What I find interesting about this debate is that from a certain point of view, it's been over for 20 years. Whether people like Section 31 or not (and for the record, I do not) it has been in the canon for 20 years. There are roughly as many if not more episodes since their introduction than before them. They are now a fact of Starfleet and the Federation. Not to mention they have been worked into every facet of the franchise since except Voyager. So the idea that they go against the principals of the Federation only works if you discount everything from DS9 forward. They were even worked into the movies. I don't like how the idea of Section 31 changed how I view the Federation, however I have to suck that up and accept that the Federation isn't what I thought it was and either deal with it on the terms presented to me, or stop watching. Because that genie is never going to go back in the bottle at this point.

 

[CorporalClegg]

That's not an argument. Just because a wrong persists over a long period of time it doesn't magically become a right. Putting the genie back in the bottle is as simple as stop using it or mentioning it.

Similarly, with luck, the Borg on Picard won't have a queen.

 

[fireproof78]

What I find interesting about this debate is that from a certain point of view, it's been over for 20 years. Whether people like Section 31 or not (and for the record, I do not) it has been in the canon for 20 years. There are roughly as many if not more episodes since their introduction than before them. They are now a fact of Starfleet and the Federation. Not to mention they have been worked into every facet of the franchise since except Voyager. So the idea that they go against the principals of the Federation only works if you discount everything from DS9 forward. They were even worked into the movies. I don't like how the idea of Section 31 changed how I view the Federation, however I have to suck that up and accept that the Federation isn't what I thought it was and either deal with it on the terms presented to me, or stop watching. Because that genie is never going to go back in the bottle at this point.

I have a similar mindset, but I don't think its a matter of sticking the genie back in the bottle. I think its a matter of establishing what are the limits of Section 31 and what they are not able to do.

For starters, we really don't have mention of them in TNG and really don't see them come back in to the picture until the Dominion War. And I think that is really telling in terms of their overall influence, and how it is diminished since TOS era. And that, for me, is the positive.

No, I don't like Section 31, but I also don't believe they are the dark glue that holds the Federation together. I think that is their moral justification for their existence, but that doesn't make it accurate or right.

My view on them is relatively simple-they are a holdover from prior to United Earth and the founding of the Federation that kept trying to manipulate and control events to support their own power and ends. Over time, they became less influential as the Federation became more powerful, and gave less and less credence to their methods, allowing Starfleet to act more in the Federation's interests (like Kirk in "The Enterprise Incident, or Picard in "Chain of Command.").

It's only when a threat is so dire that we see them try to assert power. That doesn't make the Federation less optimistic. It just makes it very human.

At least, to me.

 

[EnderAKH]

That's not an argument. Just because a wrong persists over a long period of time it doesn't magically become a right. Putting the genie back in the bottle is as simple as stop using it or mentioning it.

Similarly, with luck, the Borg on Picard won't have a queen.

You CAN'T just stop mentioning it though. Because THEN you are going to have half of the fanbase asking (justifiably, IMHO) "Where is Section 31, and why aren't they involved in this story?" They are THERE now, it's not like fans are not going to forget, especially Star Trek fans. They are woven into the fabric of modern Trek lore, and to just ignore them will create as many holes as you hope to close. Just like, if there is just is no Borg Queen on Picard with no mention of her (assuming whatever story they are doing she would be relevant to), fans will have a right to ask, "But wait, where is the Borg queen and why isn't she involved?" Because she is now officially part of the Borg mythos. And it isn't a "wrong" it's a storytelling choice the people in charge of the franchise chose to make.

I have a similar mindset, but I don't think its a matter of sticking the genie back in the bottle. I think its a matter of establishing what are the limits of Section 31 and what they are not able to do.

For starters, we really don't have mention of them in TNG and really don't see them come back in to the picture until the Dominion War. And I think that is really telling in terms of their overall influence, and how it is diminished since TOS era. And that, for me, is the positive.

No, I don't like Section 31, but I also don't believe they are the dark glue that holds the Federation together. I think that is their moral justification for their existence, but that doesn't make it accurate or right.

My view on them is relatively simple-they are a holdover from prior to United Earth and the founding of the Federation that kept trying to manipulate and control events to support their own power and ends. Over time, they became less influential as the Federation became more powerful, and gave less and less credence to their methods, allowing Starfleet to act more in the Federation's interests (like Kirk in "The Enterprise Incident, or Picard in "Chain of Command.").

It's only when a threat is so dire that we see them try to assert power. That doesn't make the Federation less optimistic. It just makes it very human.

At least, to me.

Well, exactly. They are a part of the story now, but that doesn't mean that a writer/showrunner cannot consistently show that their viewpoint is wrong and establish boundaries on what they can and cannot actually accomplish. Or have a white hat character join the organization and try to steer it in a better direction (Coulson with SHIELD, or Captain Jack Harkness with Torchwood). There are still interesting stories that can be told with Section 31 even if their initial introduction may have been....well, let's say a different direction than I would have taken.

 

[fireproof78]

There are still interesting stories that can be told with Section 31 even if their initial introduction may have been....well, let's say a different direction than I would have taken.

You mean there is dramatic potential with Section 31? Who'd have thought!

 

[EnderAKH]

You mean there is dramatic potential with Section 31? Who'd have thought!

The direction *I* would take them were it up to me? That the Federation and it's ideals have survived IN SPITE of their meddling, instead of because of it, and they just refuse to see it that way.

 

[DaveyNY]

I absolutely love that Star Trek imagines a future where Society as a whole has basically grown beyond all the petty chit we've had imbued in our psyches since we were still climbing trees and living in caves.

But I never once, ever, believed that all individuals of that future society would be completely ameliorated of said tendencies.
We are never as individual humans, going to be perfect.

There are always going to be folks who feel the need to see things in a manner that diverges with "Societal Standards" and will act on their perceived objections in less than stellar ways.

To me, Section-31 is the perfect foil to represent those kind of characters.

That doesn't mean in any way, shape, or form, that those individuals will be correct in their assumptions, nor does it mean that their actions will be justifiable.
(it also doesn't mean that those individuals will have an Evil Intent)

But in my mind, it also does not make that vision of Star Treks future any less wonderful.

 

[fireproof78]

That doesn't mean in any way, shape, or form, that those individuals will be correct in their assumptions, nor doe it mean that their actions will be justifiable.

Exactly. And, no, I don't believe making a show about them makes them "cool" or legitimate in any way, shape or form.

I believe very strongly in the ability of audience members to come to their own conclusions outside of what is presented in a TV show. That's my positive outlook on humanity.

 

[Gonzo]

I have a similar mindset, but I don't think its a matter of sticking the genie back in the bottle. I think its a matter of establishing what are the limits of Section 31 and what they are not able to do.

For starters, we really don't have mention of them in TNG and really don't see them come back in to the picture until the Dominion War. And I think that is really telling in terms of their overall influence, and how it is diminished since TOS era. And that, for me, is the positive.

No, I don't like Section 31, but I also don't believe they are the dark glue that holds the Federation together. I think that is their moral justification for their existence, but that doesn't make it accurate or right.

My view on them is relatively simple-they are a holdover from prior to United Earth and the founding of the Federation that kept trying to manipulate and control events to support their own power and ends. Over time, they became less influential as the Federation became more powerful, and gave less and less credence to their methods, allowing Starfleet to act more in the Federation's interests (like Kirk in "The Enterprise Incident, or Picard in "Chain of Command.").

It's only when a threat is so dire that we see them try to assert power. That doesn't make the Federation less optimistic. It just makes it very human.

At least, to me.

They are willing to do what no one else will do to ensure that the majority of the population can continue being blissfully unaware of just how close to the edge the Federation has come in the past.

They dont need recognition or medals like some glory hounds and are content to remain in the shadows.

I especially like that they only act if absolutely necessary and when all other avenues have failed, it shows they understand and practice restraint at all times, otherwise they would be running the show, that is probably why the Federation/Starfleet tolerates them.

I really did like the Sloan character in DS9, he came across as a very genuine individual who meant what he said, not at all surprised that they asked Georgiou to join, I bet the staff roster for S31 is very colourful indeed.

I would totally join as an Intergalactic Man of Mystery.

If you think about it the Dominion war was ended via blackmail, Bashir/Odo said to the founders that they can either surrender and receive the antidote or die out, something that Sloan would have approved of if he had lived, understandable that a part of him didnt want to take that chance and tried to stop Bashir from getting the cure.

While I do think the Alpha Quadrant could have won in the end due to the Dominion being cut off from reinforcements the death toll would have been unbelievable, same goes for the Klingon War in Discovery.

This is why I loved the plot lines of the Dominion war and S31, it was entirely believable right down to Garaks manipulation of the Romulans and Sisko hating it but knowing it had to be so, to be honest if the Romulans had found out about the trick they would probably have gone along with it anyway in admiration.

Its easy to sit in an armchair when at peace and all is well throwing stones, quite another when your whole way of life is threatened, the Federation/Starfleet know this and that is why S31 is tolerated/tacitly approved of.

 

[Noname Given]

Discovery implicitly says that inspiring future has always been a sham, since there's this SS flying around in a fleet of black ships doing all the Federation dirty work and that they're no conspiracy, but a legitimate branch of Starfleet.

I'm extremely pessimistic, so I'm totally on board with the idea.

^^^
ST: D may have expanded on it, but you can thank everyone's sentimental favorite these says - AKA DS9 - for that as Sloan said Section 31 has been around since the founding of teh Fedetration.

 

[Longinus]

So the idea that they go against the principals of the Federation only works if you discount everything from DS9 forward.

Not much of value will be lost if we do that.

 

[Longinus]

I absolutely love that Star Trek imagines a future where Society as a whole has basically grown beyond all the petty chit we've had imbued in our psyches since we were still climbing trees and living in caves.

But I never once, ever, believed that all individuals of that future society would be completely ameliorated of said tendencies.
We are never as individual humans, going to be perfect.

There are always going to be folks who feel the need to see things in a manner that diverges with "Societal Standards" and will act on their perceived objections in less than stellar ways.

To me, Section-31 is the perfect foil to represent those kind of characters.

That doesn't mean in any way, shape, or form, that those individuals will be correct in their assumptions, nor does it mean that their actions will be justifiable.
(it also doesn't mean that those individuals will have an Evil Intent)

But in my mind, it also does not make that vision of Star Treks future any less wonderful.

Yes, there is always going to be shitweasels. And if the government of the Federation approves the clandestine genocide squads run by said shitweasels, then they're also complicit.

 

[Longinus]

They are willing to do what no one else will do to ensure that the majority of the population can continue being blissfully unaware of just how close to the edge the Federation has come in the past.

They dont need recognition or medals like some glory hounds and are content to remain in the shadows.

I especially like that they only act if absolutely necessary and when all other avenues have failed, it shows they understand and practice restraint at all times, otherwise they would be running the show, that is probably why the Federation/Starfleet tolerates them.

I really did like the Sloan character in DS9, he came across as a very genuine individual who meant what he said, not at all surprised that they asked Georgiou to join, I bet the staff roster for S31 is very colourful indeed.

I would totally join as an Intergalactic Man of Mystery.

If you think about it the Dominion war was ended via blackmail, Bashir/Odo said to the founders that they can either surrender and receive the antidote or die out, something that Sloan would have approved of if he had lived, understandable that a part of him didnt want to take that chance and tried to stop Bashir from getting the cure.

While I do think the Alpha Quadrant could have won in the end due to the Dominion being cut off from reinforcements the death toll would have been unbelievable, same goes for the Klingon War in Discovery.

This is why I loved the plot lines of the Dominion war and S31, it was entirely believable right down to Garaks manipulation of the Romulans and Sisko hating it but knowing it had to be so, to be honest if the Romulans had found out about the trick they would probably have gone along with it anyway in admiration.

Its easy to sit in an armchair when at peace and all is well throwing stones, quite another when your whole way of life is threatened, the Federation/Starfleet know this and that is why S31 is tolerated/tacitly approved of.

See. This is what DS9 has done. It has portrayed this genocidal space Gestapo in such manner that people agree with them. Making a new show about this organisation with a charismatic lead will just make this effect much worse.

 

[fireproof78]

Doesn't make S31 right. Let's let people make up their own mind.

 

[Longinus]

Doesn't make S31 right. Let's let people make up their own mind.

Again. Stories have a viewpoint, they have a message. This is not real history, this is not reality television. The writers intentionally crafted a story where genocide can be seen as an acceptable solution.

 

[Rainard Fox]

Again. Stories have a viewpoint, they have a message. This is not real history, this is not reality television. The writers intentionally crafted a story where genocide can be seen as an acceptable solution.

Even worse, a story where good solutions are not working and good naive Feds can do nothing against "really cool" Klingons without help of "really cool" Terrans.

 

[fireproof78]

Again. Stories have a viewpoint, they have a message. This is not real history, this is not reality television. The writers intentionally crafted a story where genocide can be seen as an acceptable solution.

Good for them. I, as the audience member, have my own viewpoint, my own message, and can think for myself regarding the message presented. I don't have to agree with Gene Roddenberry (I don't), I don't have to agree with Ira Steven Behr (don't agree with him either), or Kurtzman. I can think for myself and make up my own mind. Just like I can watch "Daredevil" and not decide that vigilantism is somehow morally good, even if it is presented as "cool."

Just because the show presents it as such does not mean I will emulate it. The point of Star Trek was to offer social commentary on real world events, to cast light on to current problems. The fact that we are discussing it is the point, to my mind. A free exchange of ideas. And Star Trek, in my opinion, is better when it isn't black and white fantasy.

Even worse, a story where good solutions are not working and good naive Feds can do nothing against "really cool" Klingons without help of "really cool" Terrans.

Except, the good people ended up making up their own solution and coming to a compromise, rather than utilizing the "Cool Terran" solution.

It's such BS that people think because something is "cool" that automatically makes acceptable without question. Do we have no faith in humanity to think for themselves? Seriously? Then how do you expect humanity to evolve?