Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?

[fireproof78]

Actually, we never saw any of our heroes do that, right? Those have been stories, about a glorious past. I can't remember Martok ever happily munching on a Jem'Hadar.

See it? No. Discuss it in the present and future tense? Yes.

Note how "Klingons eating (prime) Georgiou" never was that big a deal either. Yes, people thought it was disgusting. But she was already dead, and the Klingons were starving. It's still weird to put something like that in a family show. But it's not as evil as having your "redeemed token evil teammate" be a person that smilingly chose a humanoid being for the purpose of eating it's ganglia. And I really hate that I have to point that out on a Trek forum.

One, DSC is not exactly a family show. Certainly not one that I watch with my family.

Two, as has been stated repeatedly in this thread no one is treating Georgiou as redeemed. She is being treated very much similar to Garak, or Dukat, who both worked with our heroes and were also perpetrators of immoral and despicable behavior, including murdering several people, and attempting genocide.

None of this is new to Star Trek, by the way. Dukat was written to be the "epitome of evil" and yet people were defending his actions:

He was supposed to be the villain of the show, and while they were proud to have created such a multi-dimensional villain, they were shocked when they saw fans online actually defending Dukat's behavior during the Occupation. Despite the writers' attempts to make Dukat the epitome of evil in subsequent shows however, his popularity would remain undiminished until the end of the series. Indeed, in relation to "Waltz", some Dukat fans were unhappy with how quickly Sisko denounces him after he tells Sisko about his initial actions as Prefect of Bajor. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)

Now, for me, I do not think Georgiou is anything but evil. But, Star Trek has had evil characters before, and I think people would be open to Dukat or Garak having their own show. So, I will continue to struggle with the idea that somehow Georgiou is the line that goes too far.

 

[Prax]

Based upon what, exactly?

That it's something Kor says, and that's just way he talks every single time he speaks, with extravagant language, hyperbole, exaggeration, and blatant falsehoods. And of course the fact that he didn't do it.

 

[fireproof78]

That it's something Kor says, and that's just way he talks every single time he speaks, with extravagant language, hyperbole, exaggeration, and blatant falsehoods. And of course the fact that he didn't do it.

He didn't? I wasn't aware we had such definitive proof for it, especially since Kang says it as well.

KANG: They will never warn anyone ever again. This time, we will reach the Albino. And when we do, I will cut his heart out and eat it while he watches me with his dying breath.

Would you eat from the heart of the Albino, Jadzia Dax? I know about the Trills during my long friendship with Curzon. And I know that each new host has no obligation to past commitments.

Oh, and the Albino mentions it as well:

ALBINO: Use it, if that's what you came to do. Kill me in cold blood. Run me through the belly and cut out my heart. Isn't that what your blood oath promised? Or have you lost your appetite, my dear.

Perhaps they are also prone to hyperbole like the above mentioned Kor?

 

[Prax]

He didn't? I wasn't aware we had such definitive proof for it, especially since Kang says it as well.




Oh, and the Albino mentions it as well:


Perhaps they are also prone to hyperbole like the above mentioned Kor?

Yes, they are. They are old school. It just means a bloody kill

 

[WinterSoldier]

I find Section 31 less interesting, I like Star Trek because I'm into the whole concept of humanity being the best it can be. Moral grey areas are fine, even fun, but for me Star Trek is about something more inspiring.
Whatever happens, I want to see a lot more Captain Pike and Emperor Georgiou

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, they are. They are old school. It just means a bloody kill

Agree to disagree on this point. Since it is used by two different characters in a similar way, I'll take it on face value.

 

[Rahul]

That it's something Kor says, and that's just way he talks every single time he speaks, with extravagant language, hyperbole, exaggeration, and blatant falsehoods. And of course the fact that he didn't do it.

Yes, they are. They are old school. It just means a bloody kill

Yeah.
Though, again, even if they did: It's still something different to eat somebody (or "only" his heart ) that you have slain in battle vs. executing a helpless prisoner for the single purpose of eating parts of him.

Yes, both is cannibalism. But one of those is just a monstrosity of evil unworthy of being the lead of a "fun", "exciting" spy-fi show for the whole family.

 

[Prax]

If "Blood Oath" had been the only hour of Star Trek to feature Klingons in all the shows and films, I would say "Wow, those guys are savages. Were they really gonna do that?! Dax is into some weird sh**!" But since Klingons are so known and oversaturated throughout the series, along with the way Kor and his friends talk, I have to conclude this is hyperbolic and idiomatic language, something we use all the time and never really think about.

IMO, this is all the more interesting anyway. It's like the strange idioms/expressions used in ancient writings(especially the bible) that modern people might read at face value, but show the colorful ways of expressing ideas that other cultures used

 

[F. King Daniel]

I find Section 31 less interesting, I like Star Trek because I'm into the whole concept of humanity being the best it can be. Moral grey areas are fine, even fun, but for me Star Trek is about something more inspiring.
Whatever happens, I want to see a lot more Captain Pike and Emperor Georgiou

Discovery implicitly says that inspiring future has always been a sham, since there's this SS flying around in a fleet of black ships doing all the Federation dirty work and that they're no conspiracy, but a legitimate branch of Starfleet.

I'm extremely pessimistic, so I'm totally on board with the idea.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, both is cannibalism. But one of those is just a monstrosity of evil unworthy of being the lead of a "fun", "exciting" spy-fi show for the whole family.

No, both are evil monstrosities. As far as lead of a show, that depends on the show. And I still don't see the "whole family" aspect either. Nor have I seen DSC or Picard marketed that way.

But, what do I know, since "The Walking Dead" had plenty of child friendly marketing and merchandising.

 

[Lord Garth]

If Section 31 were the only Star Trek show being made, I'd understand the resistance to it. Since it's not, people opposed to the series can just focus on the others. It's not that hard. And, like I've said before, all the S31-ish type stories will all be diverted into Section 31, so you'll be less likely to see it elsewhere than you would've otherwise.

There are Short Treks featuring Pike, so something is being done with him and his crew. And I still think it'll probably lead to something more. If a deal can be worked out with everyone. If not a series, maybe movies like Breaking Bad is doing with El Camino.

 

[Longinus]

Mere existence of S31 is detrimental to the franchise.

 

[fireproof78]

Mere existence of S31 is detrimental to the franchise.

Depends on how it is handled. Humans have a dark side and that will be expressed in our art and media. It's not going to go away just because.

 

[Jadeb]

Uglying up the franchise is a bad idea in general. There's enough of that already.

 

[Longinus]

Depends on how it is handled. Humans have a dark side and that will be expressed in our art and media. It's not going to go away just because.

Star Trek was about fighting that dark side the best we could, not giving into it, regardless of how tempting and convenient that may be.

 

[fireproof78]

Star Trek was about fighting that dark side the best we could, not giving into it, regardless of how tempting and convenient that may be.

Yes, indeed, but we see plenty of individuals give in to fear. Section 31 is a manifestation of that dark side. In true storytelling fashion they are now a way to discuss humanity's dark side.

I get that Section 31 isn't everyone's cup of tea but we see our heroes engage in spy style activities in the name of the Federation. It is neither shocking nor offensive, to me, that Section 31 exists, or is called upon to preserve the Federation, in their view. It is a highly reflective storytelling element of current culture. It's existence, or even the Federation's use of it, is not tacit approval of their methods or activities. It is an opportunity to call for self-reflection of all aspects of humanity, and not just the better parts of our nature.

 

[Longinus]

Yes, indeed, but we see plenty of individuals give in to fear. Section 31 is a manifestation of that dark side. In true storytelling fashion they are now a way to discuss humanity's dark side.

I get that Section 31 isn't everyone's cup of tea but we see our heroes engage in spy style activities in the name of the Federation. It is neither shocking nor offensive, to me, that Section 31 exists, or is called upon to preserve the Federation, in their view. It is a highly reflective storytelling element of current culture. It's existence, or even the Federation's use of it, is not tacit approval of their methods or activities. It is an opportunity to call for self-reflection of all aspects of humanity, and not just the better parts of our nature.

It is utterly shit way to deal with this theme. Having individuals whose moral compass is faulty is fine, having a government sanctioned Gestapo is not, and it makes the Federation a lie. And of course these evil assholes are not depicted as truly contemptible, they're depicted as cool and edgy badasses with snappy quips.

 

[Lord Garth]

Mere existence of S31 is detrimental to the franchise.

Laid bare. I can respect that.

 

[fireproof78]

It is utterly shit way to deal with this theme. Having individuals whose moral compass is faulty is fine, having a government sanctioned Gestapo is not, and it makes the Federation a lie. And of course these evil assholes are not depicted as truly contemptible, they're depicted as cool and edgy badasses with snappy quips.

I don't need a show to tell me to hold them in contempt. I can make up my own mind.

But, I'll leave it there as I know we will not agree on this point.

 

[Gonzo]

Discovery implicitly says that inspiring future has always been a sham, since there's this SS flying around in a fleet of black ships doing all the Federation dirty work and that they're no conspiracy, but a legitimate branch of Starfleet.

I'm extremely pessimistic, so I'm totally on board with the idea.

Realist here.

I am fine with it too.