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Dr Who 8x11- Dark Water

Rate Dark Water

  • Excellent

    Votes: 62 47.0%
  • Good

    Votes: 55 41.7%
  • No emotions either way

    Votes: 9 6.8%
  • A big Missytake

    Votes: 5 3.8%
  • Delete

    Votes: 1 0.8%

  • Total voters
    132
Oh, for ####s sake.

The doors open when you snap your fingers.

Yet another plot point Moffat introduces that he then later ignores. But let's not forget, he's clever!
Again, they'll open at the snap of his fingers... if they're unlocked. In this case at least, Moffat has ignored nothing.

Did they show either the Doctor or Clara locking the TARDIS doors in dream state shown in the episode? No.

How do we know then that the doors were locked, when we've seen both the Doctor (in "Forest of the Dead" et al) and Clara (in "Day of the Doctor") open the doors by snapping their fingers?

Lazy, dumb writing.
 
Getting uptight about the locked doors is silly. Since it was a dream, the finger snapping/key is a moot point.

I didn't see the Master coming as I kinda thought his story was done with the 10th ending or even with the knocking gone that he would stop being crazy/evil. I enjoyed the episode but it had so many red herrings that I may need to watch it again to determine which ones were actually valid. It was a nice twist which I saw with the "eyes" on the doors. Since, I'm not as hip on the Whoverse as others, I was able to still be surprised by the ending. Looking forward to the resolution.
 
The episode left a lot of things unexplained, as you'd expect with a cliffhanger.

But the conclusion I drew was that the whole thing about people remaining conscious of what happens to their physical bodies after death was nothing more than a scam to prey on people's fears.

There's no way it makes any sense. And the Doctor seemed to realize that pretty quickly, with the whole "Ah. Was he an idiot?" bit about the researcher who supposedly discovered it.

The "Don't cremate me" messages, the supposed research, the way that Dr. Chang played it up with the repeated warnings-- it's all just a scam, pseudoscience.

The reason behind it was to get people to agree to use their "armor" for dead people that's supposed to protect them from harm-- not knowing that the armor was, in fact, Cyberman armor made invisible by the dark water.

Meanwhile, the souls/minds of the deceased are pressured into completing their own conversion into Cybermen by agreeing to "delete" their emotions. The Cybermen used to take people by force; now they are taking them willingly (with the help of some deception).

It's certainly possible I missed something, but that was the understanding I came away from the episode with. I welcome corrections if I'm mistaken.

Very good, I agree completely.

Having watched Dark Water twice again with no problems with it, I have to conclude that, yep, my issue is the reveal to the faux mystery. If they'd just said "Michelle Gomez has been cast as the new Master" from the start, I'd have been perfectly OK. Well, still irritated by some of the cheap laughs, but that's nothing.

The Capaldi/Gomes chemistry is great- I hope they keep it.

Agreed. The big mistake was trying to milk the mystery for the season. If they had made it a mystery for an episode, with the reveal in the next episode, that would've been better. Or, maybe just at the end of Gomez' first episode.

At any rate, the mystery wasn't worthy of a season long arc. Any reveal was bound to be a let down.

Mr Awe

I agree about Gomez, she is very much the Master, well The Mistress, she has the barely contained crazy and scheming and planning personality down, she even reminds me slightly of Delgado and Ainsley's portrayals. And it's consistent with The Master's last few plans of enslaving humanity, either with his mobile network or turning them all into "the Master race" and now cyberconversion with the decietful trickery that makes the subject willing to delete their own emotions.

I really don't care for any complaining, (from myself, not others) I like it too much. At this point I'd accept the one word explanation, "because."

Gallifrey was destroyed, then it came back but it didn't and now it was never destroyed. So there's a problem with The Master coming back? Especially after he'd been killed times before and still returned. Are we counting the time he was executed by Daleks and turned into a slimey little green snail that could possess people?

And I like giving a role to someone who can play the part, now that I know who Missy is, I appreciate those other bits from earlier in the season, the really welcoming but strangely spooky sinisterness that's barely there like a cat happy to have a mouse over for dinner.

And about the arc lasting all season, I think it's tradition more than actually a need of this story, she could have been collecting and converting people for a lot longer than before this season.
 
Oh, for ####s sake.

The doors open when you snap your fingers.

Yet another plot point Moffat introduces that he then later ignores. But let's not forget, he's clever!
Again, they'll open at the snap of his fingers... if they're unlocked. And let's face it... it's rare that the Doc bothers to actually lock the doors. Heck, it isn't that uncommon for him to walk away from the TARDIS leaving the door open behind him. In this case at least, Moffat has ignored nothing.

We've seen the door able to be opened back up with and without a key, even when it was just pulled closed.

I realize they have a basic hardware store bought lock on there, but I figure the TARDIS will open the door for the Doctor, "locked" or not.

Of course, we never got to that point, since it was a dream sequence.
 
The Master may have not regenerated into a woman. In TEOT he was not in a real Timelord body, his body was flawed, very hungry, shoots electrical bolts, the whole Skeletor thing, etc.. He would have just taken over a time lady's body, using the powers of the now (presumed) dead Rassilon. If he could have regenerated with his EOT body then I'm sure he would of early on in that episode. Of course, his body could have been restored to a normal Timelord body with Rassilons power glove. We just don't know but the possibility's are endless. He could have easily escaped via the crack that was open for 900 years, we know that Timelords can send energy through it, so who knows.

Wouldn't be interesting if the Master is the one who gave the Doctor a new life cycle and used that as a method of escape!
 
My issue with the "twist" ending here is the same issue I always have with Moffat. He dragged it out (within the space of the episode) far too long and by the time it was finally revealed I just didn't care.
I don't think if there weren't speculations on the Internet anyone would need such rush to reveal everything. What are we hurrying for? Sometimes a mystery is just some revelation whose time hasn't come yet. I wouldn't be that mystified about who Missy was if it weren't for the speculation here. More importantly, the big reveal was for the Doctor, which worked wonderfully. (I usually hate mysteries, and this seemed like a mystery-lite to me.)

Clara, who probably knows the most about the Doctor and his life when compared to most of the modern companions, still chooses to betray him and try to kill him (dream state or not)?
[...]
The whole point of the companions is that they allegedly "make him a better man" but his impact on them (and all the people he helps) is also significant. If we are to take this episode (and, really, series 8 so far) the argument can be made that whatever likeability Clara had with Eleven has been completely undone by her time with Twelve/Capaldi. She's a douchebag now.

To me that was just Clara showing that she is a flawed human like she ought to be. In grave and unexpected moment of distress, she was driven by emotion like many of us would be. And she made a grave mistake, one very grave mistake, which she immediately realised. Like most people she is dangerous around a machine of immense power like the TARDIS. It would have been the Doctor's fault for not being more careful with any of his companions if they went rogue, particularly unwittingly. No matter what they've been through or what wonderful people they are, the sheer scale of what they can do – to themselves, to the Doctor, and to the universe – is incomprehensible to most of us.

That actually undoes the complaint that the TTOTD somehow made her the Doctor's pivotal superhero. Pivotal yes, superhero no. Circumstances and the very same emotional stubbornness she displayed here made her jump without thinking and subject her other selves to deadly encounters with the Doctor to save his life over and over. As remarkable as that is, it hardly makes her an unerring person who has some remarkable self-control. If she had such self-control, or any self-control at all, the Doctor would probably be dead, because a moment of honest contemplation on what saving him meant would have scared the shit out of anyone.

The Doctor has always travelled with a great deal of questionable people (TDOTD shouldn't make Clara a special companion). Right now he's hanging with someone who performs vigilante capital punishment by eating criminals alive. Yesterday I watched The Romans and the Doctor and his companions were directly responsible for a bunch of people dying, setting the entire Rome on fire and Vicki nearly wrecked the entire timeline on a whim after being told not to repeatedly. Granted, she's new to time travel, but that hardly compares to being faced with the sudden death of the one you love the most.

Come on, isn't every SciFi character allowed their "I don't care if history itself comes unravelled" moment?

After likely being made aware of all the things the Doctor went through with Rose, Mickey, Jackie, Martha and her family, Jack, Donna and her family and all the other one-shot companions? After everything Clara herself went through with Eleven? All throughout his life as the Impossible Girl schtick?
It was multiple parallel versions of Clara – ones that have been confirmed to have gaping holes in their memory – who visited his timeline all over. This Clara only saw a glimpse of his previous incarnations during that scene in TTOTD. Or maybe she knows anyway, but there was no on-screen evidence to that.

Finally, as I've thought on it after a night's rest, I'm not altogether convinced "Missy" really is The Master. It could well be Moffat, in a singular fit of brilliance, is actually trolling us and that this is a red herring cliffhanger. I'd be quite impressed if that turns out to be the case but I'm also well-prepared after the past three seasons for it to just be more "Gee whiz cool!" crap from Moffat.

After the self-repairing droid scene and her overall plan, I don't see much chance for that. She's the Mistress, putting on Simm's act mot à mot. After watching, I was almost convinced Simm's Master had also kissed the Doctor at some point.

The doors open when you snap your fingers.
Yet another plot point Moffat introduces that he then later ignores. But let's not forget, he's clever!

This isn't the first occasion where he couldn't open the door. Scratch that, that wasn't an occasion where he couldn't open the door at all. That could only be a discussion of Clara's clarity of mind. Which she obviously didn't have. At all.
 
Yet another plot point Moffat introduces that he then later ignores. But let's not forget, he's clever!

You totally missed the point of the scene!

Mr Awe

I know very well what the point of the scene was, thanks very much. See my previous post.

That doesn't negate however the fact that it was a plainly dumb scene.

It seems like you're rather agitated over this for some reason? I'm sure it's not worth the agitation on your part.

Clara had every reason to think that the Doctor could restore Danny. He's got a time/space machine. So, saving Danny seems do able. Plus, he's not always the type to follow the rules. So, no, I don't think it was unreasonable for her to become unhinged like that. It happens to normal people when confronted with unusual circumstances, particularly after an extended period of stress.

And, maybe she knows the doors won't open if the keys are destroyed? I'd take her knowledge of the situation over yours any day of the week! Or, maybe she just forgot. Either way, the end result is the same.

The point of the scene was to cement the bond between the 2 after a bumpy ride. He's behind her 100%. Unconditional love (of a platonic kind). Probably a large measure of gratitude for all she's done for him. And, the scene worked brilliantly.

Mr Awe
 
Meanwhile, Cybermen are stomping around London (again) and nobody seems to mind?

Also, 3W apparently advertises their services to the public, but Clara has never heard of them. Theory: They're in the future. Everybody from this time knows about 3W and is used to seeing Cybermen on the streets.
 
Maybe you can only open the door by snapping fingers if you have a TARDIS key on you?
The keys act like modern car keys that can open at a distance but instead of pushing a button you snap you fingers.
Problem solved.
 
Meanwhile, Cybermen are stomping around London (again) and nobody seems to mind?

Also, 3W apparently advertises their services to the public, but Clara has never heard of them. Theory: They're in the future. Everybody from this time knows about 3W and is used to seeing Cybermen on the streets.

Yeah, this was a guess of mine as well. We'll see. I supposed the whole thing could be a simulation as well.

Mr Awe
 
So that's three for three times that I've said at the beginning of the season, "Moffatt wouldn't possibly make it be X. X is so obvious and stupid."

He wants to undo a decent character arc, that the previous showrunner established. Maybe it will get better in the next episode. The Moff still has some goodwill built up from Season 7 and the 50th.
 
London sometimes keeps old things for nostalgia.

And why do people not expect the obvious out of Moffat? He's writing for what is considered a childrens show. It is suppose to be obvious by default.
 
He wants to undo a decent character arc, that the previous showrunner established.

Yeah, becuase the Master deciding to get revenge on the people who screwed him totally means he was planning on reforming just like all the other times he's had to team up with the Doctor meant he was now a good guy. :rolleyes:

Didn't the Ninth Doctor pretty much dismiss the idea that doing a nice thing for once equals redemption for a lifetime of horrible things back in Boomtown?
 
Why were so many people (Fans) wanting the Rani? She appeared twice in two really awful stories.
Most people would go Rani who?
Now Mistress Poppins is much better:-)
 
Why were so many people (Fans) wanting the Rani? She appeared twice in two really awful stories.
Most people would go Rani who?
Now Mistress Poppins is much better:-)

I'm sure some people just don't want a female Master, and that's OK. I don't mind either way, if the storyline is good and the character interesting.

I think the Rani has more untapped potential than the Master, and what's going on with the Cybermen seems more her style.

Whether Missy is really the Rani or not, I hope we do see her eventually.
 
Ooo, Cybermen. Ooo, Daleks. Ooo, the Master...it's all getting repetitive by now. Yes, they're iconic in Who lore, but I'd like a fresh new enemy.

THIS statement is why I'm growing increasing tired of NuWho. It's a new series but the villains ultimately fall back to the same trio over and over and over.
 
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