I'm a bit confused. Is Missy working in partnership with the post-"Nightmare in Silver" Cybermen or did she just steal their technology to build a personal army?
Dr Who 8x11- Dark Water
- Thread starter Lonemagpie
- Start date
The point is the scene was played out like it was real, so the Doctor and Clara are shown to believe the Tardis only has seven keys (to doomsday, nice reference) and no other way of getting in. You'd think after 2000 years of travel he'd get Touch ID or something...
So you think he gives each new companion the "seven keys" talk each time they come on board to make sure they're not batshit crazy?
I'd expect that from Capaldi but not the others.
Sure, the Person/Being behind the MISI (Interface/Avatar) has 2 Hearts, probably a Time Lord/Lady, and no reason to believe it's not The Master. But, if Missy had bombed with the viewing public, as a Master, I think they had room to say it's just an Avatar (Starkers and all the other guys with female Avatars are Men, I doubt Sojouner is really Daffy Duck [I am a Grey Owl Wizard, though, BTW]).
So, although I hope they don't go there, I can see the "out", if needed, that MISI is not what The Master currently actually looks like.
The Master has used evil allies in the past to forward his plans. The Autons and the Daleks both spring to mind.
You're assuming we're not gonna see a regeneration next week...
True, that is another "out", but, I like her as The Master, moreso than Simm, TBH. I'd like to see her in at least two more Stories over the next 1 - 5 Years. She doesn't have to be a Season long Arc, now that she's been introduced, but at least a couple more Stories before she changes would be welcome< IMHO.
Yeah, becuase the Master deciding to get revenge on the people who screwed him totally means he was planning on reforming just like all the other times he's had to team up with the Doctor meant he was now a good guy.
Yeah, as much as I actually liked The End of Time, The Master's "arc" was by no means done. He wasn't redeemed at all, not that he could be at that point. I don't get the complaining about Missy being him. The Master is all about surviving certain death just to come back. I'm pretty sure Ainley's Master was shown in several no escape scenarios but just randomly came back later with no explanation as to how he survived. Its his MO.
I don't think that would work. The Master is crazy evil. He's more Joker than Lex Luthor. Anthony Ainley or Delgado's Master's wouldn't have changed what they did at all if they'd been in the same situation as the The Master was in during TEOT. Its not in his nature. While I'm sure he'd get revenge if he could, I doubt The Master would really care if there was an outside reason he is how he is. He's still evil, making plans and generally doing what The Master does. Missy's motivation seems to be what The Master always does. She has a plan, and she wants to mess with/kill The Doctor. The Master has had different personalities in his incarnations, going from calculating to manic to whatever Eric Roberts was, but he's always had similar goals. Domination, and killing The Doctor.
Speaking of The Master, I have to say that so far I like Missy better than the Simm Doctor. She reminds me more of Ainley (my favorite incarnation), and Moffat seems to have an interesting spin on the character. Whatever happens in the next episode, I hope she shows up again.
Haha! Could be a total decoy to use as a psychological test. I have 7 keys and they can only be destroyed in a volcano. Once they start asking about a volcano, he knows something is up!
Mr Awe
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
This is all fine.
This is not. It's totally uncalled for. Where did I ever suggest such a thing in this thread?
I did defend my own opinion and reminded Alidar in an ever-so-friendly way, that I do know a little bit about how TV shows are written when he delicately intimated that I did not.
Secondly --brace yourself!-- my experience in this industry does afford me a few morsels of insight into the process of how these kinds of scripts are written. There's really no way to say this without sounding like a jerk so I'll just be blunt. Until you work on a show, you can't possibly know what it's like to work on a show. I know, I know, it sounds so pretentious. Look at him, he's such a jerk! Who does he think he is? Well, I'll tell you. A working professional in the television industry. Would you tell a doctor she doesn't know more about open-heart surgery than you? Of course not. The same way they wouldn't feel it necessary to lord it over you that they know more than you.
Until now, I've limited my replies to simply my opinion and not at all tried to suggest, state or declare that I "Magically know more" than the rest of you. Trust me, there's no magic involved. I do know more than you do. Perhaps because you don't agree with me you feel the need to take this little potshot. Kindly desist.
Last edited:
Hmmm despite your extensive professional knowledge, I still don't agree with your point of view. Is that allowed?
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Of course it is. Why wouldn't it?
I'm sure I'll regret asking. But what exactly is a "Moffat woman"?
It was good. There was some deepness that got swept away, it's not my favourite of the season but it was good. I know my wife thought it was creepy that the dead could feel what happened to their bodies, I doubt it, I think it's part of the trick to get them to hit delete.
Well, clearly the Doctor never believed it to be real. But, leaving that aside, there's no reason to think Clara didn't take all precautions (or believe she took all precautions in her dream state) to prevent the Doctor from getting back in.
Sorry, I thought you worked at a college.
Still, you don't have to work in TV to recognize a good story or a good scene. Though, it's subjective, so reasonable people will differ.
However, I don't think just working on TV will necessarily cause someone to have the "right" opinion. For example, both you and Moffat work in TV and you have very different opinions. I happen to like how it turned out so agree more with Moffat this time.
But, reasonable minds will differ on stuff like this.
Mr Awe
You know, River Song, Irene Adler, Madame Kovarian, Tasha Lem, Missy and probably several others. They are usually approaching or in middle age, not traditionally attractive, but not hideous, with similar severe facial features. They tend to act like a combination of an English school mistress and a dominatrix. They'll flirt with the Doctor or Sherlock aggressively. There is always a "mystery" about them to solve.
I don't put much stock in a discredited quack like Sigmund Freud, but there's got to be something that we can deduce about the Moff's childhood from his repeated use of the same character.
No-one's really brought this up yet, but did anyone else think that this was a bit of a waste of the first two-parter we've had in over three years now? In case you don't remember, the last time was The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People and (like most two parters) spent the first bit of the story setting up the new characters, the situation, what was at stake and so forth. Dark Water on the other hand has a very narrow pallet of characters, more suited to a standard 44 minute story (basically 3 regulars and a guest star). While this can create a more intimate setting, it does limit the scope of your story - again not a problem for a standard episode, but pointless for a double length one.
As others have observed upthread there are far too many unanswered questions at the end of Dark Water. Assuming that it is the Master somehow, where in time and space are we? Is it present day? Why don't the public care about the stomping Cybermen? Is the Master trying to conquer the world again - why? Total destruction? Enslave the human race? Exploit its resources? Why choose planet Earth (again)? Why choose this time period (he's collected souls from the past and the future, so presumably he has a TARDIS)? Why can't the Doctor sense the presence of another time lord any more?
As to this last point, the "Mister Saxon" stories went to complex and specific lengths to explain how the Master managed to hide himself from the Doctor and why he his plan had to take place on Earth in the present day (in fact it was all wrapped up inside the Evil Plot as a whole). And by the end of The Sound of Drums we knew exactly what was going on, who was doing it and why, and what was at stake. Dark Water feels more like an unfinished single parter.
I hope Part 2 proves me wrong.
As others have observed upthread there are far too many unanswered questions at the end of Dark Water. Assuming that it is the Master somehow, where in time and space are we? Is it present day? Why don't the public care about the stomping Cybermen? Is the Master trying to conquer the world again - why? Total destruction? Enslave the human race? Exploit its resources? Why choose planet Earth (again)? Why choose this time period (he's collected souls from the past and the future, so presumably he has a TARDIS)? Why can't the Doctor sense the presence of another time lord any more?
As to this last point, the "Mister Saxon" stories went to complex and specific lengths to explain how the Master managed to hide himself from the Doctor and why he his plan had to take place on Earth in the present day (in fact it was all wrapped up inside the Evil Plot as a whole). And by the end of The Sound of Drums we knew exactly what was going on, who was doing it and why, and what was at stake. Dark Water feels more like an unfinished single parter.
I hope Part 2 proves me wrong.
Honestly, I don't know what to say.
Some aspects of the Nethersphere were interesting, particularly the curved interior (reminiscent of a Dyson Sphere or a Ringworld, but the whole thing felt half-baked with the supposed surprise of the Cybermen's appearance.
As for Missy's revelation, it was hardly surprising. Many of us guessed after "Deep Breath" that she was really The Master. I guess it's suppose to be a shock that The Master is a female, but I find myself more concerned about how he could be here and now.
Lastly, the whole crux of this episode is based on the resounding love between Clara and Danny...and yet, I've never felt it. We've been told time and again they're this great couple, but they've clicked for me. It doesn't help that Danny's whole character is grounded to Coal Hill, which stories forcibly keep returning to each episode. The whole set-up breaks up the classic state of The Doctor's companion actually traveling with The Doctor through time and space, not just hopping on and off whenever they feel like it (I'm sure Ian, Barbara and The First Doctor would have a thing or two to say about this set-up...Tegan, too). I'm sure that's the whole point, but this whole season simply hasn't clicked for me for these reasons (with the minor exceptions of "Mummy on the Orient Express" and "Flatline"), and I simply did not connect with this episode and I'm sure I won't with the next one.
Such a terrible shame because Peter Capaldi is simply amazing as The Doctor. I just wish he had better material to work with.
Some aspects of the Nethersphere were interesting, particularly the curved interior (reminiscent of a Dyson Sphere or a Ringworld, but the whole thing felt half-baked with the supposed surprise of the Cybermen's appearance.
As for Missy's revelation, it was hardly surprising. Many of us guessed after "Deep Breath" that she was really The Master. I guess it's suppose to be a shock that The Master is a female, but I find myself more concerned about how he could be here and now.
Lastly, the whole crux of this episode is based on the resounding love between Clara and Danny...and yet, I've never felt it. We've been told time and again they're this great couple, but they've clicked for me. It doesn't help that Danny's whole character is grounded to Coal Hill, which stories forcibly keep returning to each episode. The whole set-up breaks up the classic state of The Doctor's companion actually traveling with The Doctor through time and space, not just hopping on and off whenever they feel like it (I'm sure Ian, Barbara and The First Doctor would have a thing or two to say about this set-up...Tegan, too). I'm sure that's the whole point, but this whole season simply hasn't clicked for me for these reasons (with the minor exceptions of "Mummy on the Orient Express" and "Flatline"), and I simply did not connect with this episode and I'm sure I won't with the next one.
Such a terrible shame because Peter Capaldi is simply amazing as The Doctor. I just wish he had better material to work with.
