Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Harris

[saturn5]

Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

There are many humans who aren't loving and many humans who torment their exes. Or kill their families. Or enjoy killing and torturing people in general.

Yeah, but we're not talking about human as in physiologically human. We're talking about 'human' as in merciful and moral. The kinds of humans you're talking about may be physically human, but in their hearts and minds, they lack the simple decency that is identified as inherent in humanity. Think of this definition of human as similar to the word 'humane'.

Well that's the point, human doesn't equal 'humane'. And Judge's definition of human doesn't fit either definition. Affection isn't "humane" in itself, it's all about how you act on it. Jealousy has little to do with being or not being humane (in fact, many people do inhumane things out of it, like murder or abuse). Liking books has nothing to do with being or not being humane.

I would say that reading and literature is the essence of humanity, as Know will later observe human's rule the earth because of fire, TV and opposable thumbs, we adapt and evolve where demons don't.
It's interesting that the Judge can burn Dalton but not Angelus, it signifies that some vampires are more human than others. Perhaps it was Dru who sired him?

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

Uh, no, he's a demon, so he doesn't have a soul. That's one of the criteria of a demon: soulless.

I think you're using a too rigid definition of "demon" here. As Lorne, Clem, et al prove, "demon" does not automatically equal "evil" or any other moral judgment about them.

Where did I say anything about evil? In fact, I said the exact opposite. Soulless does not equal evil.

With vampire demons it does of course.

[...]

Which would be one more major failing of Joss Whedon: he doesn't believe in aliens, so he refused to use the term, and therefor he named everything demon.

However, that's not my problem. If Lorne is not a demon and a space alien, he should have been called that. However, he even calls himself a demon. And a demon equals soulless.

So you're going to insist on continuing to interpret things incorrectly simply because Joss Whedon failed to use precise enough language for your tastes?

For that matter, has there ever been a time when someone on the show has said, unequivocally, that all demons are soulless?

And if being soulless doesn't make other demons inherently evil, then why does it do so for vampires?

Liam existed before Angelus does, and has entirely different personally than Angelus, one he retains has he comes back.

But personality is partially a product of memory. That is why our personalities change over the years. And Angel & Liam don't have the same personality. Like I've said before, Angel engages in all sorts of heroics that Liam would never have bothered with.

Angel does NOT remember all of Angelus' memories. He only remembers those that Angelus had that he left behind in the physical memory while he was in control. Any memories he makes while Angel is in control, that are not put down in the physical memory, are never Angel's.

That's kind of a moot point, isn't it? You maintain that, when the soul is restored, Angelus remains in the body as a helpless observer, right? This means that Angelus is experiencing all of the same things that Angel is, so there aren't any memories that Angelus has that aren't also retained by the physical brain (except for that one wierd incident in "Long Day's Journey"/"Soulless" where Angelus remembered the Beast while Angel couldn't).

There is nothing to interpret. Angelus tells you straight up: he isn't gone when Angel is in control, he remains fully intact and conscious. Something "The Dark Age" shows beyond any shadow of doubt as we see Angelus fighting Eyghon. You can only interpret things differently if there are two or more theories that fit all of the facts. Angelus and Angel not being separate does not fit the facts that happen in "The Dark Age". It's that simple.

In "Orpheus," Angelus also takes credit for Angel feeding off of that dead donut shop owner. How can that be if Angelus is a helpless, suppressed consciousness within the body? That part only makes sense if Angelus is a part of Angel's mind, not something completely separate.

As for "The Dark Age," I think a more likely interpretation is that what Eyghon fought with for control of Angel's body was a force of raw demon instinct, not a conscious mind.

Am I stretching some inferences to make more consistent the continuity of an inconsistent TV series? Sure. But at least I'm not completely ignoring inconvenient facts, like the fact that the kid in "I've Got You Under My Skin" was literally described as "soulless."

In "Amends," it seems pretty clear that Angel feels guilty for stuff that Angelus did. He's tormented by a vision of Jenny Calendar, as well as at least a couple of other people that Angelus slaughtered.

And? Did I ever say otherwise?

YES!!!!!! I submit the following from a few posts ago:

Furthermore, if Angel is not Angelus, then why does Angel feel guilty for all of the bad things that Angelus did? Why doesn't he just shrug it off and say, "That wasn't me"?

[…] Angel isn't seeking redemption/feeling guilty for Angelus' crimes as much as he is seeking redemption/feeling guilty for his own crimes. Not in the least of which is letting a shop keeper get killed so he could drink his blood, and letting an entire hotel full of guests and one in particular die and be the victim of a demon because he was too petty and short sighted to see past the guests did not have the strength to withstand the demon's influence.

 

[saturn5]

Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

Just watching Nic Brendon on Private Practice, amazing how effective it can be when you cast the nicest guy in the world as the worst (as Adam Tudyk, Robert Eglund and Larry Drake can attest to)

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Re: Douchebag characters considered "Nice Guys" - example 1: Xander Ha

Speaking of Alan Tudyk, I just want to say, "Carrots! Medicinal carrots that were here when I moved in and I'm holding them for a friend!"

BTW, I just re-watched "Orpheus" with the commentary track. It sounds like there was a whole deleted sequence from the episode where Angelus & Faith relived some of the events from "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been..." It's a shame that's not included as a deleted scene.

Sadly, it seems like Angel DVDs are always very slim on the deleted scenes front. The only ones I can recall being included are both on Season 3. "Waiting in the Wings" has a fantasy ballet sequence with Wesley & Fred. "Birthday" includes some scenes from Cordelia's Cordy sitcom (shot on a redressed version of the Dharma & Greg set).

 

[Dannyjbee]

Old thread but after reading the whole thing of OP I am glad some people realise Xander is just awful.

I didn't like him all that much early on but I despised him when he lied about Angel soul. My disdain only intensified as the seasons progressed and even when he was sufferable he remained capable of pulling out something supremely doughty.

Season 5 could have been a turning point for him, but seasons 6 he was an absolute bag of dicks in the latter episodes. He calms down in season 7 a little but he is still an a hole, he tells anya that sooner or later her excuse for hating him for dumping her at the alter is going to wear thin.... fuck you xander you do not something so vile and selfish and then decide when you should be forgiven.... then there is the whole bulbs hit turning on buffy episode.

I absolutely despised how at the end of season 7 he is lauded as the one who sees everything, what a joke if that is their summary of the series as a whole that xanders douchebag observation and judgements were always correct amd some sort of staple of the whole then that is a slap in the face.

I depose xander from start to finish, even his funnier moments were tainted by the fact he is a total flicking tool.

 

[Anwar]

The fate of the world was at stake, and Buffy knowing about what Willow was doing wouldn't have had any beneficial effect. If anything, it would've made her not fight at 100% which would've made it easier for Angelus to defeat her and suck the world to Hell.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I've always thought that Xander had a point when he said, "I think you want to forget all about Ms. Calendar's murder just so you can have your boyfriend back."

BTW, 5 years later, I still get nostalgic for all my Angel arguments with 3D Master.

 

[Wyse]

Whoa, I remember reading this thread when I first found this forum all those years ago.

I never particularly liked Xander as the seasons went on, I thought he got less likeable over the years (though considering what he went through, maybe that was just natural development). I do think he's a HUGE hypocrite in his whole 'Angel/Spike evil= must be killed', when Anya was WAY worse and killed thousands more than those two ever did.

 

[Anwar]

Whoa, I remember reading this thread when I first found this forum all those years ago.

I never particularly liked Xander as the seasons went on, I thought he got less likeable over the years (though considering what he went through, maybe that was just natural development). I do think he's a HUGE hypocrite in his whole 'Angel/Spike evil= must be killed', when Anya was WAY worse and killed thousands more than those two ever did.

The reason why the Anya thing never got brought up was because the series did it's best to never take her seriously.

See, they wanted to use Anya as a replacement for Cordelia, they couldn't do that if they bothered bringing up how she killed more people than anyone else in the show.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Wow, necromancy thread.

People consider Xander a nice guy? Xander is the comic relief character. He's the only character who never got super powers because he's the one you're supposed to identify with. I don't think he's an asshole and he was generally good to his friends but also did a couple awful things. What he did to Anya was awful but it is an understandable reaction to spending years watching your father abuse your mother. It's the kind of thing a real life emotionally crippled person would do.

As for comparing Anya to Angel/Spike, maybe he was a little bit of a hypocrite but at the time he was in a relationship with her she'd lost her ability to do evil. He was hostile toward Angel and Spike at times they did not have souls. He was right about Spike, the one time he thought his chip was broken he immediately went out and tried to kill someone. And Giles was more furious about Buffy hiding Angel after he came back than Xander was.

 

[Kemaiku]

People consider Xander a nice guy?

Only a portion of BuffyBoards, a place I regret joining to this day, Buffy fans are more insane than Trekkies could ever hope to be.

 

[Velocity]

Until the canon wars begin.

 

[Tosk]

I don't think he's an asshole and he was generally good to his friends but also did a couple awful things.

That pretty much describes all the main characters, doesn't it?

 

[Mudd]

Xander was a douchebag.

 

[Velocity]

Angel was a bigger douche. He betrayed everyone who thought they were his friend while he was supposedly looking for redemption.