Double Standards, Extreme Redshirt moment

[Bajorassian]

I am just watching (not with too much enthusiasm) ENTERPRISE. As i tried it years ago it simpl bored me, but i was told it improves so gave it another go. Now in the midde of the 4th season. Generally i think its simply mostly not well written, most stories seem to be (badly recyced from elder Star Trek, even TOS. The newly introduced races despite the Xindi are rather dull. The Xindi-arch is the only story line i really enjoyed so far.

The idea to make a show somehow between NASA and Federation was not bad, but there are too many inconsistencies i cannot ignore. Simply that Enterprise can always handle any race who is technologically centuries years in advance.

And these contradictions in the characters ...The same "supermoral" Captain Arhcer who regularely is willing to risk his whole ship and crew for not harming anybody is boarding an Illyrian Vessel they befriended before, stole their warpcoil, leave them marooned for years in an enemy space (for the greater good)... and then after earth is saved, he is not going to look again for them?

The same captain who helps on the cowboy planet the now supressed former slaveholder race to emancipate in the now human dominated society, doesnt care at all about the destinies of hundred enslaved humanoids on the orion slave market as soon as he has his crew back.

He denies the asylum request on a humanoid who is only used as a breeding incubator, but enters uninvited the camp of an hunting party on their "game planet", being their guests, and then decided to help the prey of a hunting party not being because they appear for him like a girl he deems attractive.

The worst hardcore redshirt moment of star trek i saw today. Dr. Lucas had no big problems watching his no name "Nr 1" of his research facility he works every day being killed in the most gruesome way, but as soon as his good old pen pal Dr Phlox is threatened he immedeately breaks down.

And the sexuliisation of T`pol is almost a bit akward. In general, it seems in Star Trek universe, 90% of females have to be axtraordinairy attractive young women. Not that i have problems with attractive young women But there can be aswell some interesting elderfemale characters like Pelia or Dr Pulansky.

Whatever, i am a bit frustrated, its simply incoherent, and there is hardly a really good dialogue (DS9 had so many good shakespeare like dialogues, it really improved my english). Whatever, i am almost happy if i ended the 4th season, i doubt it will strongly improve in the last 15 episodes.

Sorr for the rant, i had to let it out...ENT was the first really not so good Star Trek series imo, afterwards it fell in the abyss

 

[HotRod]

Simply that Enterprise can always handle any race who is technologically centuries years in advance.

Did we watch the same show? The NX-01 was almost always the underdog. It's one of the things that makes the ship so endearing to me.

same "supermoral" Captain Arhcer who regularely is willing to risk his whole ship and crew for not harming anybody is boarding an Illyrian Vessel they befriended before, stole their warpcoil, leave them marooned for years in an enemy space

Desperate times will make even the most moral of people do desperate things. That was the point, he had no other choice and he had to cross a boundary that he knew was wrong and it changed him. And as he would later admit, it wasn't for the better.

and then after earth is saved, he is not going to look again for them?

I'm sure they sent a Vulcan ship out there to help them.

The same captain who helps on the cowboy planet the now supressed former slaveholder race to emancipate in the now human dominated society, doesnt care at all about the destinies of hundred enslaved humanoids on the orion slave market as soon as he has his crew back.

Sometimes one has to accept that they can and can not change. Archer and his crew could effect change on that planet. The Orion market was something entirely different. What could they do?

The worst hardcore redshirt moment of star trek i saw today. Dr. Lucas had no big problems watching his no name "Nr 1" of his research facility he works every day being killed in the most gruesome way, but as soon as his good old pen pal Dr Phlox is threatened he immedeately breaks down.

Killing the first scientist was proof that the augments were willing to kill anyone who stood in their way. Lucas, for all we know, didn't think they'd go through it up to that point. After that, Lucas knew they'd kill Phlox just as easily and gave in, not wanting his good friend to suffer the same fate.

 

[BillJ]

The worst hardcore redshirt moment of star trek i saw today. Dr. Lucas had no big problems watching his no name "Nr 1" of his research facility he works every day being killed in the most gruesome way, but as soon as his good old pen pal Dr Phlox is threatened he immedeately breaks down.

Billingsley is one of the show's stars, random lab assistant isn't. Dr. Lucas is the audience.

 

[Bajorassian]

Did we watch the same show? The NX-01 was almost always the underdog. It's one of the things that makes the ship so endearing to me.

Desperate times will make even the most moral of people do desperate things. That was the point, he had no other choice and he had to cross a boundary that he knew was wrong and it changed him. And as he would later admit, it wasn't for the better.

I'm sure they sent a Vulcan ship out there to help them.

Sometimes one has to accept that they can and can not change. Archer and his crew could effect change on that planet. The Orion market was something entirely different. What could they do?

Killing the first scientist was proof that the augments were willing to kill anyone who stood in their way. Lucas, for all we know, didn't think they'd go through it up to that point. After that, Lucas knew they'd kill Phlox just as easily and gave in, not wanting his good friend to suffer the same fate.

Well the underdog always prevailed when the ship should have been destroyed in few seconds.... and Dr Soong now said Enterprise is suddenly outgunning a klingon Bird of prey 3-1... absurd developpement for 3-4 years...

You sure they sent a vulcan ship ? Based on what, if its not mentioned it doesnt happen.... If i am right it was not even mentioned in the official "hearing" where he had to justify the destruction of the Seleya... he only mentioned it to Erica (if i am right) and then the incident was never mentioned again (til episode 84 at least, have to watch the rest)

Well, the scientist was dying in front of Dr Lucas, what other proof he needed.... its like somebody watching a friend roasted on fire, and not before the victim stops screaming he knew they are ready to roast a human alive???... no it doesnt make sense despite you take it as an almost cynical redshirt moment.

What could they do? They were attacked and abducted by orions, so they got their "declaration of war", so simply help the other prisoners in the revolt, easy question.

 

[HotRod]

Well the underdog always prevailed when the ship should have been destroyed in few seconds.... and Dr Soong now said Enterprise is suddenly outgunning a klingon Bird of prey 3-1... absurd developpement for 3-4 years...

The NX-01 had its armaments significantly increased at the end of season two. They also had just undergone a massive repair and refit at the beginning of season 4. I see no problem with the combat hardened Enterprise being more than a match for one small Klingon scout ship.

You sure they sent a vulcan ship ? Based on what, if its not mentioned it doesnt happen.... If i am right it was not even mentioned in the official "hearing" where he had to justify the destruction of the Seleya... he only mentioned it to Erica (if i am right) and then the incident was never mentioned again (til episode 84 at least, have to watch the rest)

Some things you just need to take on faith. I think with Archer and crew being the type of people we know them to be, we can assume they dispatched someone to help them out. Did they say it in an episode? No. It would've been nice if they did, but i think it's a pretty safe assumption.

Well, the scientist was dying in front of Dr Lucas, what other proof he needed.... its like somebody watching a friend roasted on fire, and not before the victim stops screaming he knew they are ready to roast a human alive???... no it doesnt make sense despite you take it as an almost cynical redshirt moment.

It's also, as was pointed out, a pretty standard trope in media. I quick way to show that your antagonist means business.

What could they do? They were attacked and abducted by orions, so they got their "declaration of war", so simply help the other prisoners in the revolt, easy question.

Ok.... help the prisoners in the revolt.... how? They're one ship. Are they going to stick around in orbit and get blown to hell by the Orions? Are they going to beam up ALL the prisoners? Can the NX-01 even support that many people on board? Are they going to abandon their mission to stop a war with the Klingons, just so they can also start a full on war with the Orion Syndicate?

 

[Farscape One]

Are they going to stick around in orbit and get blown to hell by the onions?

Getting blown to hell by onions would certainly make me cry.



All great points, which I agree with. Especially the last point about the slaves of the Orions. Earth was trying to prevent a war with one empire... they certainly wouldn't win if they had to fight the Klingons AND the Orions.

Even Gowron stopped the DS9 attack before leading the Empire into a war against TWO powers. (In "THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR".)


"Destroying an empire to win a battle is no victory."

And if Archer had done what Bajorassian suggested, he would have paved the way for Starfleet to be beaten and Earth to be enslaved themselves.

 

[HotRod]

Getting blown to hell by onions would certainly make me cry.

Damn you Autocorrect!!!

 

[Set Harth]

Getting blown to hell by onions would certainly make me cry.

For more than one reason!

 

[Bajorassian]

Well Archer was obviously ready to start a war with the Klingons to save their fleeing subjects and relocate them..... which may constitute a way more dangerous enemy than the Orions.... no, for me his actions and motives are too incoherent for giving me into the story

 

[Farscape One]

Well Archer was obviously ready to start a war with the Klingons to save their fleeing subjects and relocate them..... which may constitute a way more dangerous enemy than the Orions.... no, for me his actions and motives are too incoherent for giving me into the story

Answering a distress call and helping that crew from starving and suffocating is different than actively starting a prison break on a planet.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Well Archer was obviously ready to start a war with the Klingons to save their fleeing subjects and relocate them..... which may constitute a way more dangerous enemy than the Orions.... no, for me his actions and motives are too incoherent for giving me into the story

Just imagine if it would have been Janeway - she'd wouldn't simply have been ready, she'd have got full Burnham and started it before they could!

 

[Bajorassian]

Answering a distress call and helping that crew from starving and suffocating is different than actively starting a prison break on a planet.

well, a prison break from a prison-planet who attacked you and enslaved your crewmembers is INDEED something else than giving asylum to the subjects of the Klingon Empire.. in Klingon Space...... indeed....

 

[Farscape One]

well, a prison break from a prison-planet who attacked you and enslaved your crewmembers is INDEED something else than giving asylum to the subjects of the Klingon Empire.. in Klingon Space...... indeed....

What I am saying about Archer starting a prison break is the what if scenario you posted: him breaking all the prisoners out from the Orions. That is actively starting a situation, meaning being on the offensive. Archer did meddle in the intenal affairs of that crew in "JUDGMENT", but he didn't know any of that when he was answering their distress call. It can at least be argued he was on the defensive, especially since he didn't fire first. Him going to the Orion world, he knew ahead of time it was a slave trading place. A prison, and doing anything outside of getting his own people back would be an offensive act.

I might have been unclear in how I worded what I meant, so my apologies for that.

 

[Bajorassian]

What I am saying about Archer starting a prison break is the what if scenario you posted: him breaking all the prisoners out from the Orions. That is actively starting a situation, meaning being on the offensive. Archer did meddle in the intenal affairs of that crew in "JUDGMENT", but he didn't know any of that when he was answering their distress call. It can at least be argued he was on the defensive, especially since he didn't fire first. Him going to the Orion world, he knew ahead of time it was a slave trading place. A prison, and doing anything outside of getting his own people back would be an offensive act.

I might have been unclear in how I worded what I meant, so my apologies for that.

Sorry for the late reply.

There is no cause to apologize, i understood your points i just "feel" different, its legitimate. In the end its "fantasy" and we have to individually decide for ourself what is plausibe for us and what not (if plausibility is important for "giving yourself into" the fantasy. Its like discussing if Pizza is better than Burgers.... there is no right answer, there is simply individual taste.

In the episode i just watch, Travis and Reed try to land on Vulcan in a modified shuttle (i think its not even explained what they exactely modify), undetected.. Because of "thermals" its a bumpy ride, suddenly they are attacked by vulcan petrol ships who shoot several times at them without much effect. They cant get a lock to shoot back, because of the "geomagnetic field" and explain that the vulcans can hence they are better shielded.... so Travis makes a Mickey Mouse manoevre to get behind them, and Reed manually disables them with one shoot each...

Its always the same, Enterprise is shoot at for minutes by superior ships and at best there is a minor hullbreach where a crewmember gets a spranked ankle, then they fire one shoot back at a"crucial point" and the enemy is disabled.

This is insulting even the very limited "claim on realism" i have on Science fiction.

Of course, this is part of every fiction, the hero always survives unlikely scenarios, but here it is happening in unnerving abundance. Just my opinion which is not shared by many others obviously

 

[Bajorassian]

And this dialogue at the end of the episode (i think the last time we ever hear from Koss"

T'POL: Enter. Captain Archer asked me to expresshis gratitude. He wouldn't have succeeded without your transportercodes.
KOSS: The Captain told me you were in danger. I wouldn't have been avery good husband if I didn't help.
T'POL: I'm not certain when I'll be able to return. I'm aware that Ipromised your family that we would eventually live together.
KOSS: That's not why I've come. I'm releasing you from our marriage. Iknow you only bonded with me to help your mother. She's gone now.There's no reason for us to continue.
T'POL: You don't have to do this.
KOSS: I know.
(He turns to leave.)
T'POL: Koss.
KOSS: Goodbye, T'Pol.


1. Where did Archer know Koss had these Codes? Did Archer ever met Koss, i dont think so... ?
2. So why did Koss anyhow bond with T`Pol and didnt simpy help her mother without marriage, if after T`Pels death there is no reason anymore for the marriage?

Who is writing such nonsense narratives???

 

[Farscape One]

And this dialogue at the end of the episode (i think the last time we ever hear from Koss"

T'POL: Enter. Captain Archer asked me to expresshis gratitude. He wouldn't have succeeded without your transportercodes.
KOSS: The Captain told me you were in danger. I wouldn't have been avery good husband if I didn't help.
T'POL: I'm not certain when I'll be able to return. I'm aware that Ipromised your family that we would eventually live together.
KOSS: That's not why I've come. I'm releasing you from our marriage. Iknow you only bonded with me to help your mother. She's gone now.There's no reason for us to continue.
T'POL: You don't have to do this.
KOSS: I know.
(He turns to leave.)
T'POL: Koss.
KOSS: Goodbye, T'Pol.


1. Where did Archer know Koss had these Codes? Did Archer ever met Koss, i dont think so... ?
2. So why did Koss anyhow bond with T`Pol and didnt simpy help her mother without marriage, if after T`Pels death there is no reason anymore for the marriage?

Who is writing such nonsense narratives???

Syrran did mind meld with Archer, so he may have learned that way. (T'Pel being a Syrranite, he likely knew stuff about Koss through her.)

As for Koss breaking it off withT'Pol, he clearly loved her more than she loved him, so he saw no logic in keeping her in a marriage he knew she would be unhappy in.

 

[Bajorassian]

yes but he knew from the beginning.... the first time she showed kind of affection he ended the marriage....

But i love the way you passionately defend the series The "mind meld" explanation is almost "all explaining" like time travel... "where di he know that?... Years ago he had a mind meld with somebody who had a mind meld with somebod who knew..."

But I’ll leave it at that; I don’t want to put you off the series. I’m just a bit disappointed and, to some extent, annoyed – it really should have been written much better.

Maybe it’s just too much to produce 24 episodes a year; then too many compromises are accepted and the quality suffers. It must be a privilege, after all to be allowed to write them...

I’m going to start writing my own episodes now – surely that has to be better

 

[Farscape One]

ENT had its flaws, but I'll gladly defend the show. I couldn't be put off that series.

And a shorter episode count for a season doesn't guarantee quality. As proof, look at DISCO. There wasn't a single season that was written well consistently. Hell, they only barely managed to get one season finale to actually stick the landing. And definitely only had very few episodes during its entire run that were actually good. THAT series was annoying because it COULD have been better had the writing actually been better than mediocre at best.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

And this dialogue at the end of the episode (i think the last time we ever hear from Koss"

T'POL: Enter. Captain Archer asked me to expresshis gratitude. He wouldn't have succeeded without your transportercodes.
KOSS: The Captain told me you were in danger. I wouldn't have been avery good husband if I didn't help.
T'POL: I'm not certain when I'll be able to return. I'm aware that Ipromised your family that we would eventually live together.
KOSS: That's not why I've come. I'm releasing you from our marriage. Iknow you only bonded with me to help your mother. She's gone now.There's no reason for us to continue.
T'POL: You don't have to do this.
KOSS: I know.
(He turns to leave.)
T'POL: Koss.
KOSS: Goodbye, T'Pol.


1. Where did Archer know Koss had these Codes? Did Archer ever met Koss, i dont think so... ?
2. So why did Koss anyhow bond with T`Pol and didnt simpy help her mother without marriage, if after T`Pels death there is no reason anymore for the marriage?

Who is writing such nonsense narratives???

Koss was a T'Plot Device to keep T'Pol and Trip apart, and mostly shove them into the corner while the writers room concentrated on all the big-ticket guest star multiparter episodes. T/T got about 45 seconds per show, I think. Too bad, since Manny Coto's writing really set them up for Season 4, but I think the staff knew it was the last season, so a lot of interesting plot threads got dropped for lack of time. If we'd gotten 3 more seasons, we would have had a resolution to the Illyrians and E2, plus more of Archer and Soval working together, more about the Vulcan enlightenment, Trip and T'Pol figuring out how to be together (and symbolizing growing Earth/Vulcan relations), more Mirror Universe, more of Shran dealing with being demoted for losing his ship (and joining the cast in Season 5). With Manny Coto running the writers room, it would have been glorious.

I think Koss released T'Pol because he grew a moral spine and thought beyond the logic of their childhood betrothal. Some Vulcans (see Soval, who sacrificed everything to identify the Vulcan Embassy bomber) are capable of that. Soval was a melder, and melders seem to have been more perceptive.

Enterprise had a lot of potential. I loved the character interactions, and the production values were top notch. There were many standout episodes, in my opinion. It also had a lot of interference from its little sham of a network, terrible time slots, lots of preemptions, not enough market coverage, and very little advertising. If it had run when DVRs were already a thing, it would have gotten much better ratings. It started hitting its stride in Season 4 - maybe not for you, but for many. It was on the right track. Too bad it didn't get to explore that.

 

[Bajorassian]

i enjoyed the 3rd season (xindi-arch) the most so far... 4th is so far a step back for me, but i still hve 10 episodes to go.

Sorry for my moaning, of course i somehow enjoy it or i woudnt watch it..... it simply could have been written better in many instances, and the characters have hardly "edges" and surprises so far....

Like in the last episode i watched Hoshi revealing she was a badass at the academy, broke the instructors arm, organised poker games etc etc..

But Triper "dying for the second time without dying gets annoying... cant wait for his final death....