Double Standards, Extreme Redshirt moment

[Bajorassian]

I am just watching (not with too much enthusiasm) ENTERPRISE. As i tried it years ago it simpl bored me, but i was told it improves so gave it another go. Now in the midde of the 4th season. Generally i think its simply mostly not well written, most stories seem to be (badly recyced from elder Star Trek, even TOS. The newly introduced races despite the Xindi are rather dull. The Xindi-arch is the only story line i really enjoyed so far.

The idea to make a show somehow between NASA and Federation was not bad, but there are too many inconsistencies i cannot ignore. Simply that Enterprise can always handle any race who is technologically centuries years in advance.

And these contradictions in the characters ...The same "supermoral" Captain Arhcer who regularely is willing to risk his whole ship and crew for not harming anybody is boarding an Illyrian Vessel they befriended before, stole their warpcoil, leave them marooned for years in an enemy space (for the greater good)... and then after earth is saved, he is not going to look again for them?

The same captain who helps on the cowboy planet the now supressed former slaveholder race to emancipate in the now human dominated society, doesnt care at all about the destinies of hundred enslaved humanoids on the orion slave market as soon as he has his crew back.

He denies the asylum request on a humanoid who is only used as a breeding incubator, but enters uninvited the camp of an hunting party on their "game planet", being their guests, and then decided to help the prey of a hunting party not being because they appear for him like a girl he deems attractive.

The worst hardcore redshirt moment of star trek i saw today. Dr. Lucas had no big problems watching his no name "Nr 1" of his research facility he works every day being killed in the most gruesome way, but as soon as his good old pen pal Dr Phlox is threatened he immedeately breaks down.

And the sexuliisation of T`pol is almost a bit akward. In general, it seems in Star Trek universe, 90% of females have to be axtraordinairy attractive young women. Not that i have problems with attractive young women But there can be aswell some interesting elderfemale characters like Pelia or Dr Pulansky.

Whatever, i am a bit frustrated, its simply incoherent, and there is hardly a really good dialogue (DS9 had so many good shakespeare like dialogues, it really improved my english). Whatever, i am almost happy if i ended the 4th season, i doubt it will strongly improve in the last 15 episodes.

Sorr for the rant, i had to let it out...ENT was the first really not so good Star Trek series imo, afterwards it fell in the abyss

 

[HotRod]

Simply that Enterprise can always handle any race who is technologically centuries years in advance.

Did we watch the same show? The NX-01 was almost always the underdog. It's one of the things that makes the ship so endearing to me.

same "supermoral" Captain Arhcer who regularely is willing to risk his whole ship and crew for not harming anybody is boarding an Illyrian Vessel they befriended before, stole their warpcoil, leave them marooned for years in an enemy space

Desperate times will make even the most moral of people do desperate things. That was the point, he had no other choice and he had to cross a boundary that he knew was wrong and it changed him. And as he would later admit, it wasn't for the better.

and then after earth is saved, he is not going to look again for them?

I'm sure they sent a Vulcan ship out there to help them.

The same captain who helps on the cowboy planet the now supressed former slaveholder race to emancipate in the now human dominated society, doesnt care at all about the destinies of hundred enslaved humanoids on the orion slave market as soon as he has his crew back.

Sometimes one has to accept that they can and can not change. Archer and his crew could effect change on that planet. The Orion market was something entirely different. What could they do?

The worst hardcore redshirt moment of star trek i saw today. Dr. Lucas had no big problems watching his no name "Nr 1" of his research facility he works every day being killed in the most gruesome way, but as soon as his good old pen pal Dr Phlox is threatened he immedeately breaks down.

Killing the first scientist was proof that the augments were willing to kill anyone who stood in their way. Lucas, for all we know, didn't think they'd go through it up to that point. After that, Lucas knew they'd kill Phlox just as easily and gave in, not wanting his good friend to suffer the same fate.

 

[BillJ]

The worst hardcore redshirt moment of star trek i saw today. Dr. Lucas had no big problems watching his no name "Nr 1" of his research facility he works every day being killed in the most gruesome way, but as soon as his good old pen pal Dr Phlox is threatened he immedeately breaks down.

Billingsley is one of the show's stars, random lab assistant isn't. Dr. Lucas is the audience.

 

[Bajorassian]

Did we watch the same show? The NX-01 was almost always the underdog. It's one of the things that makes the ship so endearing to me.

Desperate times will make even the most moral of people do desperate things. That was the point, he had no other choice and he had to cross a boundary that he knew was wrong and it changed him. And as he would later admit, it wasn't for the better.

I'm sure they sent a Vulcan ship out there to help them.

Sometimes one has to accept that they can and can not change. Archer and his crew could effect change on that planet. The Orion market was something entirely different. What could they do?

Killing the first scientist was proof that the augments were willing to kill anyone who stood in their way. Lucas, for all we know, didn't think they'd go through it up to that point. After that, Lucas knew they'd kill Phlox just as easily and gave in, not wanting his good friend to suffer the same fate.

Well the underdog always prevailed when the ship should have been destroyed in few seconds.... and Dr Soong now said Enterprise is suddenly outgunning a klingon Bird of prey 3-1... absurd developpement for 3-4 years...

You sure they sent a vulcan ship ? Based on what, if its not mentioned it doesnt happen.... If i am right it was not even mentioned in the official "hearing" where he had to justify the destruction of the Seleya... he only mentioned it to Erica (if i am right) and then the incident was never mentioned again (til episode 84 at least, have to watch the rest)

Well, the scientist was dying in front of Dr Lucas, what other proof he needed.... its like somebody watching a friend roasted on fire, and not before the victim stops screaming he knew they are ready to roast a human alive???... no it doesnt make sense despite you take it as an almost cynical redshirt moment.

What could they do? They were attacked and abducted by orions, so they got their "declaration of war", so simply help the other prisoners in the revolt, easy question.

 

[HotRod]

Well the underdog always prevailed when the ship should have been destroyed in few seconds.... and Dr Soong now said Enterprise is suddenly outgunning a klingon Bird of prey 3-1... absurd developpement for 3-4 years...

The NX-01 had its armaments significantly increased at the end of season two. They also had just undergone a massive repair and refit at the beginning of season 4. I see no problem with the combat hardened Enterprise being more than a match for one small Klingon scout ship.

You sure they sent a vulcan ship ? Based on what, if its not mentioned it doesnt happen.... If i am right it was not even mentioned in the official "hearing" where he had to justify the destruction of the Seleya... he only mentioned it to Erica (if i am right) and then the incident was never mentioned again (til episode 84 at least, have to watch the rest)

Some things you just need to take on faith. I think with Archer and crew being the type of people we know them to be, we can assume they dispatched someone to help them out. Did they say it in an episode? No. It would've been nice if they did, but i think it's a pretty safe assumption.

Well, the scientist was dying in front of Dr Lucas, what other proof he needed.... its like somebody watching a friend roasted on fire, and not before the victim stops screaming he knew they are ready to roast a human alive???... no it doesnt make sense despite you take it as an almost cynical redshirt moment.

It's also, as was pointed out, a pretty standard trope in media. I quick way to show that your antagonist means business.

What could they do? They were attacked and abducted by orions, so they got their "declaration of war", so simply help the other prisoners in the revolt, easy question.

Ok.... help the prisoners in the revolt.... how? They're one ship. Are they going to stick around in orbit and get blown to hell by the Orions? Are they going to beam up ALL the prisoners? Can the NX-01 even support that many people on board? Are they going to abandon their mission to stop a war with the Klingons, just so they can also start a full on war with the Orion Syndicate?

 

[Farscape One]

Are they going to stick around in orbit and get blown to hell by the onions?

Getting blown to hell by onions would certainly make me cry.



All great points, which I agree with. Especially the last point about the slaves of the Orions. Earth was trying to prevent a war with one empire... they certainly wouldn't win if they had to fight the Klingons AND the Orions.

Even Gowron stopped the DS9 attack before leading the Empire into a war against TWO powers. (In "THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR".)


"Destroying an empire to win a battle is no victory."

And if Archer had done what Bajorassian suggested, he would have paved the way for Starfleet to be beaten and Earth to be enslaved themselves.

 

[HotRod]

Getting blown to hell by onions would certainly make me cry.

Damn you Autocorrect!!!

 

[Set Harth]

Getting blown to hell by onions would certainly make me cry.

For more than one reason!

 

[Bajorassian]

Well Archer was obviously ready to start a war with the Klingons to save their fleeing subjects and relocate them..... which may constitute a way more dangerous enemy than the Orions.... no, for me his actions and motives are too incoherent for giving me into the story

 

[Farscape One]

Well Archer was obviously ready to start a war with the Klingons to save their fleeing subjects and relocate them..... which may constitute a way more dangerous enemy than the Orions.... no, for me his actions and motives are too incoherent for giving me into the story

Answering a distress call and helping that crew from starving and suffocating is different than actively starting a prison break on a planet.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Well Archer was obviously ready to start a war with the Klingons to save their fleeing subjects and relocate them..... which may constitute a way more dangerous enemy than the Orions.... no, for me his actions and motives are too incoherent for giving me into the story

Just imagine if it would have been Janeway - she'd wouldn't simply have been ready, she'd have got full Burnham and started it before they could!

 

[Bajorassian]

Answering a distress call and helping that crew from starving and suffocating is different than actively starting a prison break on a planet.

well, a prison break from a prison-planet who attacked you and enslaved your crewmembers is INDEED something else than giving asylum to the subjects of the Klingon Empire.. in Klingon Space...... indeed....