Agreed.
To simply have clothes that fit, isn't enough - not for people who would go to a tailor in the first place. They don't just want clothes, they want the right kind of clothes. And you can't get that kind of advice from a replicator.
Don't replicators make Garak's tailor business redundant?
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Agreed.
To simply have clothes that fit, isn't enough - not for people who would go to a tailor in the first place. They don't just want clothes, they want the right kind of clothes. And you can't get that kind of advice from a replicator.
Out of curiosity: what was the most sophisticated item replicated? The only energy beam weapon I can remember coming from a replicator is the thing Dukat programmed to shoot up Ops.
I find myself agreeing with the "not everyone will want one" crowd. Just look at the internet today. A great majority of people have access to vast stores of knowledge, for very little cost. Yet, how many actually go out learning everything that can be learned. Rather we tend to have our own niche. Just because everything is available doesn't mean everything will or can be had.
Additionally, I think the "enlightened human" aspect tends to get looked over. We usually try to figure out these Star Trek economics based on our own experiences and understanding. Yet, we are talking about a vastly different culture than our own. Granted, humans in Star Trek are generally depicted as 20th century Americans in space. However, there must be something different underneath that isn't shown.
Another thing about culture is that they constantly change. So the "advanced humans" of kirk's era are going to be VERY different from the "advanced humans" of Picard's era.
I know culture isn't completely relevant to this discussion. But these discussions of fictional future economics tend to get bogged down because we project our own culture onto the characters and fictional systems we observe.
Whose to say Janeway didn't have a love instructor like Kirk's mother?
Additionally, I think the "enlightened human" aspect tends to get looked over. We usually try to figure out these Star Trek economics based on our own experiences and understanding. Yet, we are talking about a vastly different culture than our own. Granted, humans in Star Trek are generally depicted as 20th century Americans in space. However, there must be something different underneath that isn't shown.
Another thing about culture is that they constantly change. So the "advanced humans" of kirk's era are going to be VERY different from the "advanced humans" of Picard's era.
I know culture isn't completely relevant to this discussion. But these discussions of fictional future economics tend to get bogged down because we project our own culture onto the characters and fictional systems we observe.
Whose to say Janeway didn't have a love instructor like Kirk's mother?
You're walking down the street and people at the Apple store are handing out free phones. You've already got one. All your mobile phone needs have already been met
You gonna say no thanks?
It isn't about interest. It's about human nature. The utopia defenders (for that is what I shall call you) would have me believe that this has simply disappeared (Picard would also have me believe it)
I don't
And I have witnessed nothing in the shows that would make me. Remember when Riker got jealous, remember when Worf got envious, remember when trio got anxious, etc etc. human nature has not changed. Hell, even Data (a frikkin robot) got angry when he was stolen. When it is absolutely no skin off my nose to have slightly better quality Garak pants, what is my incentive for saying nah, I'll have replicated pants. At the very least, I'll surely choose to have both (regardless of my interest in clothing) since it costs me absolutely nothing to do so. No effort is required of me in the slightest
Learning requires effort. The issue for me is lack of effort. If it requires no effort for me to have better pants then I don't see what could possibly compel me to not to have them.
Additionally, I have already agreed that "not everyone one will want one" but a LOT of people will. So many that it cannot conceivably be realistic that they ALL do get one. So what happens when your one of the people that can't have one?
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Yes. I have no intrest in a new phone if I have one already. Even if it is free. Why would I spend the effort for a free phone I do not need or want? Even if it is like six steps out of my way. Why would I need one? I don't, so I don't go to get one.
Same with clothing. I wear clothing to stay warm and because going nude is generally considered illegal or at least impolite. All I need them to do is fit me and not be a color I can't stand. I don't need them to be fancy or extremely comfortable. That isn't why I wear clothing.
As for picking replicated pants over Garak's? If I can replicate the pants at home, I don't even have to go to his shop. Lazy wins out over effort for fancy, potenally free, clothing I don't need. Or efficiency if one is a busy Starfleet officer.
Ladies and gentleman
The utopia defender
And Garak's pants meet all those requirements so why are you rejecting them (other than because it's the only way to make this idiotic future work)
How does the replicator know your size? Presumably the same way Garak does. It requires no effort whatsoever for you to have better fitting clothing, more comfortable clothing but you don't want it
Well of course you don't
You don't need to go to a tailor to get clothing. Department stores sell clothing you can try on yourself. Today you can order clothing online without even having to go to a store. If it doesn't fir you try on the next size up or down. No tailor needed for fitting. If replicator and make and unmake clothing with generic sizes such as we have today, if one size doesn't fit you ask for the next size. Repeat until the clothing fits. Then you don't even have to do that unless your waistline gets larger or smaller.
And who's defending the utopia? I just don't care about iPhones. I've had the same phone for four or five years now. I could get a free phone as a upgrade for being on the service plan for just two years. I just have no reason to get a new phone since the one I have works just fine for what I need.
And who's defending the utopia? I just don't care about iPhones. I've had the same phone for four or five years now. I could get a free phone as a upgrade for being on the service plan for just two years. I just have no reason to get a new phone since the one I have works just fine for what I need.
A man of means knows that even when you buy a shirt off the rack, you bring it to a tailor, who will bring in the sides so that it fits perfectly. Sizes don't encompass the entire range of types of physiques, and an outside eye is critical to getting the proportions just right. Perhaps you don't care to achieve that look, but style is generally considered an indication to one's attention to detail.
There are two questions here, not one.
Firstly, why would people purchase personally-tailored clothes rather than replicate their own?
Well something that immediately springs to mind is: maybe some people don't have replicators. Deep Space Nine does not cater, solely, to Starfleet personnel. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people passing through on a daily basis from non-Federation worlds.
Who's to say replicator technology is as ubiquitous in their societies?
Another thing is: who's to say that they have the skill to replicate what they want?
There's almost definitely a Federation-standard civilian clothing set out of which you could order from a replicator ("Caretaker"). But, are they going to have something for everyone? Of course not, that would be a tedious job for an engineer to do. So, if you can't find something you like from the replicator (or you want to use rarer fabrics, or whatever), then you'd go to a professional tailor.
Secondly, why would you have tailors in a world without the money?
Well, the obvious answer is that Cardassians do still use a money-economy and he's just living like a businessman out of habit. As a raving Marxist, however, I'm inclined to believe that most races advanced races (those on par with Humanity) have evolved beyond that.
Even then, however, we see Sisko's father running a business on Earth. It's, therefore, entirely reasonable to assume that some people enjoy business life, regardless of how much money they make from it (or whether they even need to make any money from it at all).
Robert Heinlein's book, "A Comedy of Customs", explores precisely this concept; in a post-scarcity world where nobody needs to work, most people still do. The difference is that the kind of work people do tends to be more creative like; acting, dancing, painting and tailoring.
Firstly, why would people purchase personally-tailored clothes rather than replicate their own?
Well something that immediately springs to mind is: maybe some people don't have replicators. Deep Space Nine does not cater, solely, to Starfleet personnel. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people passing through on a daily basis from non-Federation worlds.
Who's to say replicator technology is as ubiquitous in their societies?
Another thing is: who's to say that they have the skill to replicate what they want?
There's almost definitely a Federation-standard civilian clothing set out of which you could order from a replicator ("Caretaker"). But, are they going to have something for everyone? Of course not, that would be a tedious job for an engineer to do. So, if you can't find something you like from the replicator (or you want to use rarer fabrics, or whatever), then you'd go to a professional tailor.
Secondly, why would you have tailors in a world without the money?
Well, the obvious answer is that Cardassians do still use a money-economy and he's just living like a businessman out of habit. As a raving Marxist, however, I'm inclined to believe that most races advanced races (those on par with Humanity) have evolved beyond that.
Even then, however, we see Sisko's father running a business on Earth. It's, therefore, entirely reasonable to assume that some people enjoy business life, regardless of how much money they make from it (or whether they even need to make any money from it at all).
Robert Heinlein's book, "A Comedy of Customs", explores precisely this concept; in a post-scarcity world where nobody needs to work, most people still do. The difference is that the kind of work people do tends to be more creative like; acting, dancing, painting and tailoring.
Even without economic incentive, there is still a quest for prestige, power and influence. Conversely, we don't know if there is either a punitive or shaming mechanism that is applied to those who do not work.
For a more creative type, life in a tailor's shop or as a restaurateur would probably be quite fulfilling regardless of the money involved (or not involved, as the case may be).
In fact, I imagine life could be quite stifling under the Cardassian Union; creative business could be a form of escapism.
Are we talking about Star Trek or "A Comedy of Customs"? There's no shaming mechanism in the latter. That's made quite explicit, most people would simply find idleness unsatisfying.
When Joseph, and to a lesser extent, Ben Sisko cooks, they aren't simply indulging artistic whimsy. They contextualize cooking in terms of a quest for meaning as well as personal satisfaction. Joseph's loyalty is not just to his culinary vision, but to the restaurant as a purveyor of a style. He is not entirely directed towards his personal goals,but to the pleasure of his customers. INdeed, he is surprisingly like Quark, even if the profit motive is not necessarily there.
Not necessarily. If a grocery store hands out free samples, or if a publisher hands out free copies of the newspaper, there are still plenty of people who pass it up, because they don't need or want it.
There is indeed power in saying no. And doing that does not devalue the food of the grocery store or the newspapers as long as there are enough people to say yes and go along with the producer's goals.
As for the phone analogy, even if it's free, there's still getting accustomed to the phone, having to deal with a specific kind of customer service (after all, not everyone has the same experience), differences in utility and durability, and we're also assuming that iphones will someday have the same hip prestige as well (which will no doubt change if they're being handed out for free). And nevermind trying to buy the appropriate compatible accessories, which were not stipulated as being free.
Plus, if the number of people who get iphones increases exponentially, if it's not taken into account properly, that also means customer service wait times, repair jobs, on-site tutorials, et all. will also increase. And apple's relationship with app developers might also fundamentally change; if some are Android exclusive because of the market change, and you're an Android fan, then you're even less likely to accept a free iphone.
So in summary, there are other factors at play aside from straight up cost. There's also indirect cost, and non-financial cost as well. And then there's also sentimentality or brand preference, which are human factors that aren't driven by money.
I wonder about that. If you have a replicator dup your smartphone would the copy emerge in working condition? The physical form would be there, but Timo what about the programming?
Could a replicator reproduce programming code that it "knew" nothing about? Can it scan programming?
Yes, and wouldn't the free iphone also qualify? Like I said, the phones may be free, but nobody said anything about their apps, classes, accessories, data plans, etc. A free iphone would likely be a gateway to all those purchases. And for some people, those are costs that aren't worth the free phone, so they'd have reason to refuse it.
In any case, free or not, it still takes money to produce an iphone, but that wasn't really the question being posed.
None of which I have particular use for.
You're missing the point. For it to be analogous you must already have groceries and a newspaper but they are groceries and newspapers that are of slightly lesser quality than the ones being given away. Garak's clothing (which requires nothing of you) is a product containing slightly (perhaps even vastly) more quality than what your replicator can produce. Under those circumstances, why would you reject it? (you neither gain nor lose anything by accepting his clothing so why on Earth do so?) you neither gain nor lose by accepting slightly better quality groceries or newspapers so again, why would you do so
There is no power is saying no to something that you want though. You want clothes. You are not rejecting clothes. You are rejecting slightly better clothes
Why?
But again, you do want a phone! You are willing to pay for the apps, accessories, surplus etc. The question is why do you not want one that is better and free. Saying you don't want a phone because you already have one is contradictory. Clearly by having one, you do want one. So when offered a slightly newer, better one for no cost beyond what you are already willing to pay (including the cost of apps etc) what is your motivation for rejecting it? Perhaps if you didn't ever have or want a phone that would make sense but if you did, then it simply doesn't. Even if you didn't want it you could sell it or give it to a friend. There is no obligation on you to do anything beyond accept it.
It. Is. Free
Yes some might reject it but most simply would not. To argue otherwise is ludicrous and frankly staggering. Yet the utopia defenders keep trying this argument.......In the future people won't want things even though other people have them. Yeah, that admiral lives in a beautiful house on the beach and wears beautiful Garak clothes but I'm happy to live here in the city wearing my replicated rubbish because....well because I just conveniently am
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DS9 did like to handwave the existence of replicators in episodes involving commerce.
Like, could replicators really not produce self sealing stem bolts?
Like, could replicators really not produce self sealing stem bolts?
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