Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
We noticed it decades ago in fanzine artwork. Something to do with the nose.
We noticed it decades ago in fanzine artwork. Something to do with the nose.
Donny's TOS Enterprise Interiors
- Thread starter Donny
- Start date
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Donny, I'm glad to have been of service to do my part to ensure that fact doesn't become myth (because of deteriorating reference material) and that myth (...) doesn't become fact.
Although I'm really not trying to find fault and be more nitpicky than necessary, please note the asymmetry of the admiral's braids:
The braid below the Commodore braid is only separated from the Commodore's braid by a space equalling the width of one braid. In contrast the braid above the Commodore braid appears to be separated by the width of two such braids.
I also noticed that you didn't consider "Fleet Captain" (e.g. Pike) as an in-between rank. Admittedly, we never saw such rank but if you wanted to bring the "lower" ranks to "full circle" I presume this rank would consist of three uninterrupted braids.
If I remember correctly, starting with "Commodore" we are on the flag officer level. At this level interrupted half-braids are somewhat inappropriate, I believe and therefore we do only see full braids in addition to the Commodore braid.
There is debate among fans whether Fitzpatrick (the only one where we saw an admiral's braid) is just an "admiral" or in fact the "Fleet Admiral" (the existence of this rank was established by a remark from Dr. McCoy in "Space Seed").
Now, just as there wasn't any real need to explicitly state "Engineering Deck 12" in either "Mudd's Women" or "The Enemy Within" (everyone knows that "Deck 12" cannot be a saucer deck and therefore has to be one in the engineering hull), I think it's not too farfetched to assume that Kirk understood that the fleet admiral was giving him a call when Uhura said "Admiral Fitzpatrick" and not just his usual sector commander (I'd expect that Nilz Baris would not have accepted just to talk to Kirk's sector commander, but insisted to speak to the fleet admiral himself. He was such a kind of guy...).
Therefore, I believe that the average "admiral" just wears one full braid above the Commodore braid while Fitzpatrick's extra braid below the Commodore braid identifies him as "fleet admiral".
Of course, this is entirely conjectural but I wanted to mention this option.
Bob
Here's the updated Admiral rank stripes (with a human hand I just finished modelling).
Donny, I'm glad to have been of service to do my part to ensure that fact doesn't become myth (because of deteriorating reference material) and that myth (...) doesn't become fact.
Although I'm really not trying to find fault and be more nitpicky than necessary, please note the asymmetry of the admiral's braids:
The braid below the Commodore braid is only separated from the Commodore's braid by a space equalling the width of one braid. In contrast the braid above the Commodore braid appears to be separated by the width of two such braids.
I also noticed that you didn't consider "Fleet Captain" (e.g. Pike) as an in-between rank. Admittedly, we never saw such rank but if you wanted to bring the "lower" ranks to "full circle" I presume this rank would consist of three uninterrupted braids.
If I remember correctly, starting with "Commodore" we are on the flag officer level. At this level interrupted half-braids are somewhat inappropriate, I believe and therefore we do only see full braids in addition to the Commodore braid.
There is debate among fans whether Fitzpatrick (the only one where we saw an admiral's braid) is just an "admiral" or in fact the "Fleet Admiral" (the existence of this rank was established by a remark from Dr. McCoy in "Space Seed").
Now, just as there wasn't any real need to explicitly state "Engineering Deck 12" in either "Mudd's Women" or "The Enemy Within" (everyone knows that "Deck 12" cannot be a saucer deck and therefore has to be one in the engineering hull), I think it's not too farfetched to assume that Kirk understood that the fleet admiral was giving him a call when Uhura said "Admiral Fitzpatrick" and not just his usual sector commander (I'd expect that Nilz Baris would not have accepted just to talk to Kirk's sector commander, but insisted to speak to the fleet admiral himself. He was such a kind of guy...).
Therefore, I believe that the average "admiral" just wears one full braid above the Commodore braid while Fitzpatrick's extra braid below the Commodore braid identifies him as "fleet admiral".
Of course, this is entirely conjectural but I wanted to mention this option.
Bob
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
@ 137th Gebirg
Interesting link. The one thing I have doubts about are the four stripes and its variations (where's a psychologist when you need one?
). I can instantly and subconsciously make a distinction between 1, 1 and a half, 2, 2 and a half and three braids. More than three braids, I have to start counting to make sure I make the proper distinction between 3 or 4. Would this make sense from a practical point of view?
And the braids of the fleet admiral from the link really go down. Is there a lower limit of braids or a sleeve "level" from where you go up (but not down)?
Too bad, that we don't know how simple or not people like Bob Justman (he's probably responsible for Fitzpatrick's admiral stripes) wanted this to be.
I found interesting what Wikipedia had on the rank of Commodore and naval ranks in general (looks like "Commodore" and "Rear Admiral" are one and the same?)
Bob
P.S. Look at Fitzpatrick's left sleeve!!! Is that just a reflection or one (or two) "vertical" braids within the Commodore braid?!?!
@ 137th Gebirg
Interesting link. The one thing I have doubts about are the four stripes and its variations (where's a psychologist when you need one?
). I can instantly and subconsciously make a distinction between 1, 1 and a half, 2, 2 and a half and three braids. More than three braids, I have to start counting to make sure I make the proper distinction between 3 or 4. Would this make sense from a practical point of view?And the braids of the fleet admiral from the link really go down. Is there a lower limit of braids or a sleeve "level" from where you go up (but not down)?
Too bad, that we don't know how simple or not people like Bob Justman (he's probably responsible for Fitzpatrick's admiral stripes) wanted this to be.
I found interesting what Wikipedia had on the rank of Commodore and naval ranks in general (looks like "Commodore" and "Rear Admiral" are one and the same?)
Bob
P.S. Look at Fitzpatrick's left sleeve!!! Is that just a reflection or one (or two) "vertical" braids within the Commodore braid?!?!
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Hmmm...never noticed that before.
I would personally be inclined to say that those are reflections of the super-bright studio lights from the highly reflective nature of that chromed braid strip. I'm still wondering if it's gold or silver, though. I somehow remember the Commodore middle area being silver.
I suspect that a thorough viewing of the "you're in good hands with Starfleet" tribble-bouncing blooper scene will determine this with certainty if that bright line is moving about with the studio lighting (reflection) vs. along with the rest of the sleeve (more braid).
Re: Commodore vs Rear Admiral, the US Navy did away with the title of Commodore a while back and replaced it with Rear Admiral Lower Half. The other Rear Admiral became Rear Admiral Upper Half. Never understood that Lower/Upper Half nonsense, other than to maybe make recently promoted Captains feel better about themselves once they got to the upper echelons. So, long and short of it, it's possible that Starfleet "in universe", did the same thing after a certain period of time, post-TOS.
Hmmm...never noticed that before.
I would personally be inclined to say that those are reflections of the super-bright studio lights from the highly reflective nature of that chromed braid strip. I'm still wondering if it's gold or silver, though. I somehow remember the Commodore middle area being silver.
I suspect that a thorough viewing of the "you're in good hands with Starfleet" tribble-bouncing blooper scene will determine this with certainty if that bright line is moving about with the studio lighting (reflection) vs. along with the rest of the sleeve (more braid).
Re: Commodore vs Rear Admiral, the US Navy did away with the title of Commodore a while back and replaced it with Rear Admiral Lower Half. The other Rear Admiral became Rear Admiral Upper Half. Never understood that Lower/Upper Half nonsense, other than to maybe make recently promoted Captains feel better about themselves once they got to the upper echelons. So, long and short of it, it's possible that Starfleet "in universe", did the same thing after a certain period of time, post-TOS.
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
AFAIK the human mind/eye can "instinctively" grasp up to 5 items, before you actually have to start counting.
The one thing I have doubts about are the four stripes and its variations (where's a psychologist when you need one?
AFAIK the human mind/eye can "instinctively" grasp up to 5 items, before you actually have to start counting.
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Commodore Mendez: Gold
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x11hd/themenageriepart1hd024.jpg
Commodore Stone: Gold
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x20hd/courtmartialhd019.jpg
Commodore Decker: Silver
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x06hd/thedoomsdaymachinehd0693.jpg
Commodore Stocker: Silver?
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x12hd/thedeadlyyearshd1230.jpg
Commodore Wesley: Silver AND Gold??
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x24hd/theultimatecomputerhd0021.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x24hd/theultimatecomputerhd1159.jpg
-----
Mendez and Stone's "reflective bar" int the middle appears to be certainly gold. Decker's appears to be certainly silver. Commodore Stocker is a toss-up IMHO (leaning silver), and Bob Wesley's appear to be both silver AND gold, alternating between the two screencaps I provided. (Wesley's stripes, however, most likely look that way due to the reflection of light on the bar, and not the color of the bar itself) Thoughts?
Also, we can see in these shots that Mendez, Stone, and Decker all have the "early version" which has stripes of a different decorative pattern than we're used to seeing on all the other rank stripes. Personally, I'm glad they reverted back to the regular stripes for the "later version", which is also apparent on the photo which Robert Comsol provided of Admiral Fitzpatrick a few posts back.
EDIT:
Here's a version with the silver bar if it helps us better visualize it: (also, remember that these rank stripes look a little too "inflated" now, but will appear more flat against the sleeve once I convert these to low-poly meshes)
Commodore Mendez: Gold
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x11hd/themenageriepart1hd024.jpg
Commodore Stone: Gold
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x20hd/courtmartialhd019.jpg
Commodore Decker: Silver
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x06hd/thedoomsdaymachinehd0693.jpg
Commodore Stocker: Silver?
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x12hd/thedeadlyyearshd1230.jpg
Commodore Wesley: Silver AND Gold??
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x24hd/theultimatecomputerhd0021.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x24hd/theultimatecomputerhd1159.jpg
-----
Mendez and Stone's "reflective bar" int the middle appears to be certainly gold. Decker's appears to be certainly silver. Commodore Stocker is a toss-up IMHO (leaning silver), and Bob Wesley's appear to be both silver AND gold, alternating between the two screencaps I provided. (Wesley's stripes, however, most likely look that way due to the reflection of light on the bar, and not the color of the bar itself) Thoughts?
Also, we can see in these shots that Mendez, Stone, and Decker all have the "early version" which has stripes of a different decorative pattern than we're used to seeing on all the other rank stripes. Personally, I'm glad they reverted back to the regular stripes for the "later version", which is also apparent on the photo which Robert Comsol provided of Admiral Fitzpatrick a few posts back.
EDIT:
Here's a version with the silver bar if it helps us better visualize it: (also, remember that these rank stripes look a little too "inflated" now, but will appear more flat against the sleeve once I convert these to low-poly meshes)
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Oh...and for the sake of completeness...
The Medical Insignia (Version 2, which was worn by Nurse Chapel during Season 3)
And the updated tunic, now with the correct number of seams on the sides, as pointed out by GSchnitzer.
Oh...and for the sake of completeness...
The Medical Insignia (Version 2, which was worn by Nurse Chapel during Season 3)
And the updated tunic, now with the correct number of seams on the sides, as pointed out by GSchnitzer.
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Wow...never realized there were so many uniform/rank braid variations, outside the most obvious things to notice (early shoulder zippers, spacing variance between rank braids over the seasons, etc). This project seems to have evolved considerably beyond a simple Connie walk-through. Most impressive, and very educational.
Wow...never realized there were so many uniform/rank braid variations, outside the most obvious things to notice (early shoulder zippers, spacing variance between rank braids over the seasons, etc). This project seems to have evolved considerably beyond a simple Connie walk-through. Most impressive, and very educational.
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Hey, Donny:
Just for the heck of it, can you make one of the earlier style of Red Cross patch--the one that's superimposed on the science symbol?
Oh...and for the sake of completeness...
The Medical Insignia (Version 2, which was worn by Nurse Chapel during Season 3)
And the updated tunic, now with the correct number of seams on the sides, as pointed out by GSchnitzer.
Hey, Donny:
Just for the heck of it, can you make one of the earlier style of Red Cross patch--the one that's superimposed on the science symbol?
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Hey Donny,
You may have addressed this previously and I just missed it but the banding on either side of the the Commadore braid was different than the standard braid that we see on the other uniforms. It was more of a sine wave. You can see it in the above screen cap links that you posted. Here is a photo of what I'm talking about:
Again, if you already address this just disregard my comment.
EDIT: Nevermind, lol, I see that you HAVE addressed it. Sorry.
Hey Donny,
You may have addressed this previously and I just missed it but the banding on either side of the the Commadore braid was different than the standard braid that we see on the other uniforms. It was more of a sine wave. You can see it in the above screen cap links that you posted. Here is a photo of what I'm talking about:
Again, if you already address this just disregard my comment.
EDIT: Nevermind, lol, I see that you HAVE addressed it. Sorry.
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Always found it supremely amusing that they chose a pretzel to be the symbol of the Constellation. Although I thought the command star (and other branch symbols) was supposed to be located in the circular area in the lower-right-hand corner of the patch.
Always found it supremely amusing that they chose a pretzel to be the symbol of the Constellation. Although I thought the command star (and other branch symbols) was supposed to be located in the circular area in the lower-right-hand corner of the patch.
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
I'm not sure that's what it is. Actually, this symbol "&" has its calligraphic root in the latin word "et" (=and). The way feek61 has presented the Constellation insignia, I now - and for he first time - see an "A" in the upper half and a "d" in the lower one, forming the latin word "ad" meaning "to".
"Ad astra" seems like the perfect phrase for a ship named "Constellation".
Bob
I'm not sure that's what it is. Actually, this symbol "&" has its calligraphic root in the latin word "et" (=and). The way feek61 has presented the Constellation insignia, I now - and for he first time - see an "A" in the upper half and a "d" in the lower one, forming the latin word "ad" meaning "to".
"Ad astra" seems like the perfect phrase for a ship named "Constellation".
Bob
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
And for those who haven't seen this, here's a bit more information about the ships' insignias from other ships:
http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/?p=2329
Hey Donny,
You may have addressed this previously and I just missed it but the banding on either side of the the Commadore braid was different than the standard braid that we see on the other uniforms. It was more of a sine wave. You can see it in the above screen cap links that you posted. Here is a photo of what I'm talking about:
Again, if you already address this just disregard my comment.
EDIT: Nevermind, lol, I see that you HAVE addressed it. Sorry.
And for those who haven't seen this, here's a bit more information about the ships' insignias from other ships:
http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/?p=2329
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Not at all. I'm loving how educational this thread is becoming!
The actual patch was folded; only showing part of it with the rest tucked in behind. Here is the back:
Unfolded it would have looked something like this:
Don't mean to hijack the thread
Not at all. I'm loving how educational this thread is becoming!
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Now it looks even MORE like a pretzel!
Or a gremlin face.
The actual patch was folded; only showing part of it with the rest tucked in behind. Here is the back:
Unfolded it would have looked something like this:
Don't mean to hijack the thread
Now it looks even MORE like a pretzel!
Or a gremlin face.
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Hey Feek,
Could you check the below figure? When I unfold the insignia, I get something slightly different than you, mainly at its connection point on the bottom.
Note that I did not fix the top part of the folded piece which, to me, looks like it might have been doubly-folded or cut to hide it on the back.
Dave
Unfolded it would have looked something like this:
Don't mean to hijack the thread
Hey Feek,
Could you check the below figure? When I unfold the insignia, I get something slightly different than you, mainly at its connection point on the bottom.
Note that I did not fix the top part of the folded piece which, to me, looks like it might have been doubly-folded or cut to hide it on the back.
Dave
Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine
Dr. Dave:
Conversely, can you fold that extra piece from the "unfolded" picture back under the patch to see what you get?
Hey Feek,
Could you check the below figure? When I unfold the insignia, I get something slightly different than you, mainly at its connection point on the bottom.
Note that I did not fix the top part of the folded piece which, to me, looks like it might have been doubly-folded or cut to hide it on the back.
Dave
Dr. Dave:
Conversely, can you fold that extra piece from the "unfolded" picture back under the patch to see what you get?
