Maybe there's different sizes of cargo containers?
Donny's Refit Enterprise Interiors (Version 2.0)
- Thread starter Donny
- Start date
I don’t think Khan’s habitat was meant to be the same sized cargo pods we see in the Refit hangar bay. The ones in the Refit are only 7.5 feet tall standing upright. Could be larger variants that were onboard the TOS Enterprise? But honestly I always though those “cargo carriers” were meant to be some of the detachable cargo pods from the Botany Bay, not ones from Enterprise. I could be wrong though.I suspect they were designed to look like the same cargo containers, but the interiors of those things in TWOK seemed considerably bigger than how they looked on the outside in TMP. I could be wrong, but it feels like there is some dimensional transcendentalism going on there, TARDIS style.
The fact that the safety belt Chekov grabs ahold of is labeled "Botany Bay" lends itself to the idea that the cargo carriers are from the Botany Bay, as though the Enterprise went back for them. That's been a part of my headcanon all along.
TNG's cargo arrangements weren't the most convincing - smallish rooms with plastic barrels on shelves doesn't make much sense. I assume we only saw smaller bays for cargo that had just arrived, or was being readied for departure.
I've always assumed they were the Botany Bay's pods too, although presumably augmented with some extra kit. They aren't really clearly visible anyway. I suppose they could be prefabricated shelters from the TOS Enterprise.
So I'm still continuing to block out the cargo bay complex. I know in an earlier post I was going to try harder to "make it all fit" with this project in contrast with my TOS project, but the more I flesh things out the more problems I'm running into. I'm coming to the conclusion that to get the most enjoyment out of this project, the best course of action is to just stop trying to make it all fit, model the interiors as we see them on-screen, and just rely on the fact that you can't be on the outside of the ship and the inside at the same time to my advantage. I'll still marry the exterior hull with the interiors in some key places (the flight deck doors, docking ports on primary hull), but I want to squash right now any hopes at having one, contiguous exterior/interior model of the Enterprise without sacrificing screen-accuracy with the interiors
I don't have any new images yet, as I'm working with very basic geo without textures, but here are some takeaways from my findings:
1. Using the known dimensions of the cargo pod alcoves (confirmed by the Phase II schematic of Admiral Nogura's office) and the matte paintings of the cargo bay, I've been able to determine that the deck height portrayed in the matte painting is 11 feet. Indeed, the entire cargo bay is 33 feet high, 78 feet wide, and 110 long (if you assume there are 3 more cargo alcoves on the starboard and port walls forward of the docking port/lifeboat access; 92 feet if you assume only 2 more alcoves. I haven't decided which number I'm going to portray yet).
2. This deck height of 11 feet conflicts with Andy Probert's side view schematic of the cargo/flight complex, which when compared with the scale of the Enterprise comes out to show a deck height of 12 feet. MSGTTE also states that the decks of the secondary hull are 12 feet. Note that the Enterprise's main engineering room also has a deck height of 12 feet, which I've confirmed with schematics. This presents several problems when trying to "make it all fit"
3. Andy's side view schematic shows the engineering hull's docking port to be considerably lower than it is on the actual model. And after lining up my cargo bay complex geometry vertically with the flight deck of my exterior model and horizontally with the docking port, the port on the model is considerably higher to make any kind of logical sense. And given the fact that the cargo bay’s width doesn't allow much clearance between its walls and the walls of the outer hull, a ramp coming down from the docking port to the deck below it would be comically steep. Andy seems to have been aware of this when you look at his schematic since the docking port is lowered to a more logical position. But I don't know if that schematic was made before or after the exterior model was completed, so it's hard to determine why this discrepancy exists.
Indeed, on scale models of the Enterprise, you can see how the engineering docking port is about a full deck higher than where it should be (although on this particular model, the docking port seems to have been moved up just a tad to allow for the opening)
4. Given that realistically there isn't a lot of space between the cargo bay's inner walls and the exterior hull, this presents all sorts of problems. For isntance, we can assume there are small observation lounges (or other rooms with windows looking out into space ) to port and starboard of the cargo bay's p/s walls on it's highest deck, since on the exterior model there is clearly a row of windows on the same deck of the engineering hull's docking port. But if I try to "make it all fit", these observation lounges/rooms would be very small and, again, comically proportioned. There's also the aforementioned problem that there isn't enough clearance for the cargo pods to be in their alcoves on the port and starboard side, nor do the snippets of corridors we see on the lower level fit at all.
So, when it comes to this giant complex, there's no way I can make it fit realistically within the hull and respect the deck height of 12 feet without radically changing the proportions of what we see on-screen, which I'm just not willing to do. Just wanted to make this clear going forward. I will literally end up tearing my hair out if I attempt to squash this beautiful matte painted environment into the ship. It just ain't gonna happen.
I don't have any new images yet, as I'm working with very basic geo without textures, but here are some takeaways from my findings:
1. Using the known dimensions of the cargo pod alcoves (confirmed by the Phase II schematic of Admiral Nogura's office) and the matte paintings of the cargo bay, I've been able to determine that the deck height portrayed in the matte painting is 11 feet. Indeed, the entire cargo bay is 33 feet high, 78 feet wide, and 110 long (if you assume there are 3 more cargo alcoves on the starboard and port walls forward of the docking port/lifeboat access; 92 feet if you assume only 2 more alcoves. I haven't decided which number I'm going to portray yet).
2. This deck height of 11 feet conflicts with Andy Probert's side view schematic of the cargo/flight complex, which when compared with the scale of the Enterprise comes out to show a deck height of 12 feet. MSGTTE also states that the decks of the secondary hull are 12 feet. Note that the Enterprise's main engineering room also has a deck height of 12 feet, which I've confirmed with schematics. This presents several problems when trying to "make it all fit"
3. Andy's side view schematic shows the engineering hull's docking port to be considerably lower than it is on the actual model. And after lining up my cargo bay complex geometry vertically with the flight deck of my exterior model and horizontally with the docking port, the port on the model is considerably higher to make any kind of logical sense. And given the fact that the cargo bay’s width doesn't allow much clearance between its walls and the walls of the outer hull, a ramp coming down from the docking port to the deck below it would be comically steep. Andy seems to have been aware of this when you look at his schematic since the docking port is lowered to a more logical position. But I don't know if that schematic was made before or after the exterior model was completed, so it's hard to determine why this discrepancy exists.
Indeed, on scale models of the Enterprise, you can see how the engineering docking port is about a full deck higher than where it should be (although on this particular model, the docking port seems to have been moved up just a tad to allow for the opening)
4. Given that realistically there isn't a lot of space between the cargo bay's inner walls and the exterior hull, this presents all sorts of problems. For isntance, we can assume there are small observation lounges (or other rooms with windows looking out into space ) to port and starboard of the cargo bay's p/s walls on it's highest deck, since on the exterior model there is clearly a row of windows on the same deck of the engineering hull's docking port. But if I try to "make it all fit", these observation lounges/rooms would be very small and, again, comically proportioned. There's also the aforementioned problem that there isn't enough clearance for the cargo pods to be in their alcoves on the port and starboard side, nor do the snippets of corridors we see on the lower level fit at all.
So, when it comes to this giant complex, there's no way I can make it fit realistically within the hull and respect the deck height of 12 feet without radically changing the proportions of what we see on-screen, which I'm just not willing to do. Just wanted to make this clear going forward. I will literally end up tearing my hair out if I attempt to squash this beautiful matte painted environment into the ship. It just ain't gonna happen.
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Just go with the in and out like you were planning Donny. No need to drive yourself crazy over it.
Eh, lenses make room look bigger than they really are all the time. And how many times have we seen a video game where for some reason the characters look they're 3 feet tall in a 20 foot tall room? I'm sure whatever you do will be mostly invisible.
Yeah, but that's the kind of stuff I try to get away from with my work. Doesn't always happen at my day job due to "gameplay purposes" (
) but in my personal work I want everything to feel properly scaled to a humanoid body.IIRC, Probert had to fight with the interior designers just to not have things that blatantly contradicted the exteriors. It’s a minor miracle the set didn’t end up with a bank of huge windows along the left side. The end result was good enough to hold up for the few seconds it was on screen. I think he was knew that the set as shown wouldn’t hold up to close scrutiny against the exterior, but at the end of the day he had to pick his battles. Good enough for government work as they say.
Oh, I totally am not faulting Probert with any of this. I understand the realities of production, and despite its problems fitting perfectly within the hull, the cargo/flight complex is INCREDIBLY well designed. I'm amazed at the matte paintings themselves, how everything is proportioned to a degree that I can study just the painting and extrapolate real-world dimensions from it, and most of those measurements are nice, round numbers to the foot or half a foot. Shows how skilled and meticulous the guy is.
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As for the comically small observation room, The Great Bird himself wrote about "leftover spaces" that existed as nooks and crannies between the important stuff that were used for meditation and whatnot. Spock used one before they met up with Vejur. And it had a window.
Thanks for that info. I really need to read his TMP novelization.
Also, Andy was constrained by the set and the plate photography already shot. He had to design the spaces to work with that. He would never have designed what we got had they come to him cold and said, "design the cargo deck and use these wall pieces."
Yeah, but that's the kind of stuff I try to get away from with my work. Doesn't always happen at my day job due to "gameplay purposes" (
That's what I meant. You're going to be so close to "correct" that the discrepancies will go essentially unnoticed unlike a lot of stuff out there. Heck, if it's like the movie then it will be hard to tell if it really fits or doesn't unless someone is shown a direct comparison in a diagram or something.
I was always disappointed, bordering on irritated, that they effectively rolled back the Probert interior with a barely-upgraded TOS shuttlebay in a ship that was supposed to be built later than the original 1701. However, understanding how impactful budgetary considerations are on a production, it makes sense that they would revert to that older design if they were actually going to play in it, vs. walking through and simply "taking a look" from a distance like they did in TMP. If they had today's relatively inexpensive CG tech back then, Shatner may have been able to build a full-sized hangar, along with many of the other things he wanted to do. Galaxy Quest's excellent CG stone monster scene was pretty much one of Shatner's ideas that got punted because the practical man-in-suit outfits they did have looked like shit.
I remember disliking the TMP shuttle bay/cargo deck initially. In part because they didn’t “use” it for the travel pod, docking to the side of the ship instead (at the time I basically thought of the travel pods as a type of shuttle craft). But also I was disappointed to learn that so much of the the secondary Hull was taken up this vast open bay - it took a lot of the mystery away of all the different places and rooms might be behind all the windows. Watching TOS and the movies, I had in my mind that there were all these other rooms and places to explore, and TMP negated that saying that it was instead mostly hollowed out empty space.
It did seem to be a horrible waste of space. I think it was used more for the visual "wow" factor, and that we never really did get much of a look inside the ship during TOS' run, save a few sets. It quite effectively drove home how this was "an almost entirely new Enterprise". Its use was almost certainly more about appearances than practicality.
Well, you got to store your cargo somewhere. I kinda like it myself, especially the funky storage containers. The TFF shuttle bay seemed more of an homage to the TOS shuttle bay. The same could be said about the TFF / TUC bridges, which has styling that's again more of an homage to the TOS bridge.
