Dominion War Timeline

[Timo]

Regarding ST:INS, it sounds inconceivable that it would take place during the war. Starfleet and the Federation would never deal with the Son'a as long as they were actively working for the Federation's greatest enemy. Nor would they be engaged in negotiations with the Dominion if the war were still ongoing - "Statistical Probabilities" at the very last would have put a full stop to such things. And Worf wouldn't leave DS9.

Not to mention that there simply wasn't any war in the movie. Our heroes were not fighting it, weren't even considering fighting it (even though they were considering various other alternatives to what they were doing at the time), and never made any mention of it. The villains stayed equally mum.

The stardate-free movie thus probably takes place some time after the conclusion of the war, at a time when Worf has already discovered that he's not cut out to be the UFP Ambassador to the Klingons and has returned to work at and for DS9.

As ST:GEN clearly predates these events and the war (Worf would only join the DS9 team after the loss of the Enterprise-D) and ST:NEM clearly postdates the war (with references to its conduct and conclusion), we can safely leave all the TNG movies out of the war equation and let the Enterprise heroes do their own thing. And, if we want to, also believe that they did their bit in the war, too, in some adventures we never saw that in no way conflict with what we did see.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

The Son'a helping the Dominion might have been an aftermath of the events of Insurection.

There seems to be a lull in the war following the Siege of AR-558 until the Breen enter the war. Worf was said to have been on the way someplace and stopped on the Enterprise because it was on the way. He likely was only going to stay the night. Rest up, then head out again the next day, but duty called first. Worf is also not in a set of episode which makes it a good fit.

Also Picard is complaining about the war early on by the need for all these diplomatic fuctions to bring early warp civilizations into the Federation. And lements about not being out exploring.

It would also likely place Enterprise at Earth after getting a new warp core in time to assist in repelling the Breen attack.

The Son'a are only mentioned once in DS9 and that's in the final arc just before the Breen enter the war.

 

[Timo]

The Son'a helping the Dominion might have been an aftermath of the events of Insurection.

The mention of the Son'a in DS9 featured their "new" Ketracel White factories... Would they be news to Weyoun at that point still, when they are old news to our ST:INS heroes?

Worf was said to have been on the way someplace and stopped on the Enterprise because it was on the way. He likely was only going to stay the night. Rest up, then head out again the next day, but duty called first.

Except duty didn't call. Instead, Worf took a holiday and joined Picard's crew on a mission of zero importance to, say, the Dominion War!

Also Picard is complaining about the war early on by the need for all these diplomatic fuctions to bring early warp civilizations into the Federation. And lements about not being out exploring.

Picard never mentions any war, only negotiations with the Dominion. If there really was a war going on, wouldn't he lament about not being out fighting? Or at least being out negotiating?

What Picard is about to get involved in is a months-long archaeological study (he worries about getting the season right, so it's not a quick in-and-out!). Supposedly, he's also dragging his crew with him, rather than just taking a shuttle by himself. So that's one Sovereign class starship completely wasted when Starfleet needs her at the front lines, right? That is, if there is a war still going on.

Really, there's no way this adventure could avoid making mention of the war if there really was one. Our heroes have this big warship, they are soldiers by profession, they have loved ones who would be threatened by the Dominion, and one of the heroes is an extremely central figure in the politics of the war, working at the eye-of-the-storm center of the conflict and serving as the prime UFP liaison to the Klingon war machine. Janeway might do a movie where the war gets no mention, even in a timeline where she stays at Alpha the whole time. Picard, Riker and especially Worf cannot.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

As mentioned, there was a lull in the war after the Seige of AR-558. Both sides were not doing much. A stalemate. Worf was suppose to have been helping establish a new defense peremiter at the Manzar colony which is near where Enterprise was. Doing this is something you do during a lull to boost defenses before the next phase of a war. There was a small number of episodes following AR-588 that basically ignore that there is a war on. It is still there, but it is not a pressing problem at DS9...which is still only a handful of light years away it seems from Cardassia. Things picked back up for the finale of DS9, which is where the Son'a are mentioned.

That the Son'a were known to aid the Dominon might have been one of those things. Playing both sides. That Picard knows the Son'a are involved might have been his first clue something was off in the Briar Patch. Aside from Data actually taking hostages that is.

Also the production staff made a gap of about three episodes in length that take place over a long period of time to account of Worf being on Enterprise (also for Quark being in the Briar Patch, as he was going to be there on vaction).

 

[Timo]

As mentioned, there was a lull in the war after the Seige of AR-558. Both sides were not doing much. A stalemate.

...Not the best of times for the UFP to start helping out the Son'a who were in the unique position of helping out the Dominion with their Ketracel White production thing. Unless the Feds tried to use the Son'a stuff to bribe the Jem'Hadar, but there was no mention of this, and our heroes expressed disgust at the very concept of KW, rather than delight that they could now start waging an Opium War!

Worf was suppose to have been helping establish a new defense peremiter at the Manzar colony which is near where Enterprise was. Doing this is something you do during a lull to boost defenses before the next phase of a war.

Or after a big war has been concluded and the ruins need to be propped up to stop undesirable elements from filling the power vacuum. The same goes for gathering new allies.

It is still there, but it is not a pressing problem at DS9...

But if Worf has found a way to contribute to the war effort despite the lull, why is he throwing that away and engaging in this odd civilian holiday of his? Surely every bit of neglect during the lull will come back to bite him when the fighting begins again.

Also the production staff made a gap of about three episodes in length that take place over a long period of time to account of Worf being on Enterprise

Which is sort of unnecessary as the movie only takes at most a week of action!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

I've come to think a post-war setting is the only thing that makes sense too - Picard and co are just far too happy and breezy for us to believe there is a life and death struggle for the future of the Federation going on.

I can perfectly believe that Dougherty perhaps conducted the surrender of the Son'a outpost Weyoun mentions, and presumably got chatting with his former foe Ru'afo about a certain magic planet in Federation space.

The film could take place between the surrender of the Dominion military forces, and the conclusion of the peace treaty. Thus, Worf hasn't yet left DS9, but does have time to kill, and the Enterprise is back on peacetime footing.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, we don't know how long it took, and what transpired, between the war ending (Female Founder signs that treaty the contents of which are left unclear, after which Sisko defeats Dukat one final time and boards the astral plane) and Worf leaving DS9 (walks out with Martok, a montage of flashbacks follows). Might have been hours. Might have been days. Might have been years.

The only dramatically limiting fact there is that Odo delivers the cure to the Link after the scene where Worf departs DS9, supposedly for good. Supposedly, there'd be a bit of a hurry with the cure. But the Odo/Kira scenes could be taken to be parallel to the other ones, the ones with the montages, not consecutive.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

I always think the Sisko scene takes place after the treaty signing, which slightly muddles my thinking. But that doesn't mean negotiations aren't ongoing afterwards - the thing she signs could merely be the armistice, with the full treaty to follow in time. It would take a while to organise the withdrawal of all Dominion assets back to the Gamma Quadrant, and for the Federation to begin relief efforts on Cardassia.

I don't think those montage sequences need necessarily even be taken to be concurrent with Odo returning to the Link. It's a dramatic segment about goodbyes - it doesn't mean each character is literally packing their bags at the same time.

There's plenty of wiggle room for Worf to sneak away for a week in the meantime.

 

[Timo]

Certainly the war could be concluded at the scene where we see the Female Founder sign something, and lots and lots of negotiations with the Dominion on various issues unrelated to the war itself could then commence, and keep on going for centuries to come.

And Worf could be staying aboard DS9, pondering Martok's offer, taking a short leave on the E-E, and then either accepting or declining, we don't know which - all this while negotiations were ongoing, because the negotiations really don't establish any sort of a time limit as such (save for probably only starting at the end of the war).

When Worf is seen walking with Martok to the (Promenade) airlock, perhaps he's just seeing off his friend and House Patriarch (and carrying his luggage), then returning to his Strategic Operations Officer console at Ops. Which would allow for ST:INS to take place at any point after the DS9 epilogue.

It would take a while to organise the withdrawal of all Dominion assets back to the Gamma Quadrant, and for the Federation to begin relief efforts on Cardassia.

Assuming either of those things ever happened, that is. Might be the Dominion is in Alpha to stay, and Cardassia is ceded to the Klingons, or the Romulans, or even the Breen. The later TNG movies don't touch upon such issues, alas.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jimcat]

Hello, everyone,
The problem with “Star Trek: Insurrection” is that there really are no clues to when it’s supposed to be. I went with the overall consensus that it happens during the Dominion War, reflecting when it was filmed in relation to the production of “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine”. My own placement reflects the fact that Chief O’Brien pretty much wanders off DS9 for a month or two in “Prodigal Daughter” to look for Morica Bilby, which is odd if there’s a war on, but it obviously happens at that time. It does seem to support Ithekro’s theory that there’s a “lull” in the Dominion War when other things might happen, and key DS9 personnel might drift off for a while to have their own adventures.

The Dominion War seems to appear and disappear as a factor in “Star Trek” depending on whether it was the story the production team wanted to tell just then. All the same, Timo always has some excellent points to make, and I’ll be thinking very carefully about moving “Star Trek: Insurrection” to a point after the war has finished in my own timeline. After all, Captain Picard is very certain that he’ll be back to take 318 days’ leave on the Ba’ku planet in the near future. That does imply that he’s been very busy for quite a while, but is now anticipating a long break.

I really don’t think there’s a definitive answer to this, and it may well have been deliberate. There’s nothing to say Worf might not have been off DS9 for an extended period during “It’s Only A Paper Moon” and/or “Prodigal Daughter,” but equally, he might not have been appearing in “Star Trek: Insurrection” which can still happen later, since all we really know is that Worf wasn’t an ambassador in “Star Trek: Nemesis”. Having looked at the dialogue in the film, I think it could plausibly be just after the end of the war, but that’s a matter of opinion. Setting it earlier is by no means ruled out by anything I’ve read. You just have to go with what suits you.

Best wishes,
Timon

 

[Timo]

I really don’t think there’s a definitive answer to this, and it may well have been deliberate.

I have very little knowledge of (and generally interest in) the backstage proceedings of the various films, but here it would be interesting to learn whether the movie writing team deliberately tried to steer clear of any "conflict" with the ongoing TV shows, after supposedly having had some issues with ST:FC.

Using Worf must have been by gentleman agreement of some sort, but using and thrashing the Defiant did not go all that smoothly, supposedly. Here, only Quark is used and ultimately dropped; references to Worf's marriage are purged; and while Ketracel White is name-dropped, this is only with careful omission of references to the Jem'Hadar...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jimcat]

Hello Timo,
Since it’s the weekend, I have time to look through my reference library. The most detailed account of the making of “Star Trek: Insurrection” was in the very briefly-available “Fade In” by Michael Piller. Without admitting to having kept a copy after it was withdrawn, you may find the following quote interesting:

On Deep Space Nine, the series which chronicles the continuing adventures of Starfleet, the Federation was involved in a desperate war for survival against the evil Dominion. It would be nice, I felt, to be consistent with the TV show. Picard and the Enterprise might be involved in combat when we find him. I called Ira who has guided the series for the last several years. “I know this is a hard question to answer,” I said. “But where do you think the Federation will be next Christmas when this movie comes out?”
Ira, who enjoys exploring the darker side of Twenty-Fourth century life, laughed and answered, “This might surprise you, knowing me. But I think things will be looking up for the Federation. The war will linger on but it’ll reach a stalemate probably by then and our stories will be more hopeful.” It made sense. Deep Space Nine would be in the middle of its last season -- the decision had been made long ago that it would run seven seasons -- and certainly they’d want to end the series on an uplifting note.
So, it seemed combat wasn’t the answer for Picard and as I sat there, I told myself it was probably just as well. Rick was not enthusiastic about the Dominion War plotline on Deep Space Nine and I knew he’d be reluctant to bring it to the big screen even as a tangential element.
So, I decided Picard would be awash in mundane details of duties heaped upon him by Starfleet Command as the war was winding down. It would be a far more subtle ‘regeneration’ for our Captain but I thought I could pull it off and I thought I could do it with humor which would be more in keeping with the tone of the film.

And

Rick ultimately decided that it would be confusing to audience members who were not regular viewers of Deep Space Nine so we ignored the death of Worf’s wife.

It was all Rick Berman’s fault, apparently.

I’m guessing it was taken as read that Worf would be in the all the movies, and that may well have had more to do with Michael Dorn’s contract than any specific decision taken for a particular film (although I’m only guessing about that). Of course, by ignoring the the war and Jadzia Dax's death (and taking into account the much longer production time for a film compared to a TV show, so that the release date may well be a closer indication than what was being filmed when the movie was being made), there are very few references that help to place “Star Trek: Insurrection” in relation to “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine”. Since “Star Trek: Insurrection” was released in the US on the 11th December 1998, then the “current” “Star Trek: Deep Space Nine” stories would have been “Covenant” before (25th November 1998), and “It’s Only a Paper Moon” after (30th December 1998). That seems to be the approach Memory Alpha has taken, but there really isn’t anything to establish that as “fact.”

My own feeling is that you have a point, Timo; if the Dominion War is still being fought, it is very difficult to see how the Enterprise can be spared for this mission. It’s the flagship!

Best wishes,
Timon

 

[Ithekro]

The flagship of the Federation. Doing Federation work, while the fleet is at war. Because somebody has to keep doing all those things they use to do while thousands of starships fight it out against the Dominion.

Basically Enterprise is doing the jobs of several dozen starships that would normally be able to do those kinds of missions while Enterprise would be out exploring the galaxy. Because all those ships are now fighting a war, Enterprise is acting as flagship of the Federation and presenting the best face for the Federation during such a dark time.

 

[Tomalak]

I suppose the other option is that it takes place before the war, during late season five of DS9, or during the lull in mid season six, when we know the Federation and the Dominion were engaged in talks.

Actually the "Enterprise is the flagship and would be on the front lines" argument doesn't quite work for me. Insurrection makes a big deal of the Enterprise being overworked, asked to juggle a hundred different missions. It could be that Starfleet took the view that another ship wouldn't make much difference on the front lines, but Picard's experience was best used as a one-ship troubleshooting team, sorting out all the problems the rest of Starfleet doesn't have time for. At least in the absence of any major offensive by either side. There are always fronts in all wars that are quieter than others.

Piller's view above is quite sensible, and I can understand Berman's reluctance to have a story with too many references to a show many potential viewers wouldn't have seen. Insurrection keeps things deliberately vague. There's nothing inherently contradictory in the film, so we fans can spend time over fifteen years later debating it's exact placement in the Star Trek canon.

Edit - in agreement with Ithekro above!

 

[BrentMc]

I am trying to figure out the date of the second battle of Chin"toka. The episode it takes place in "The Changing Face of Evil" doesn't have a stardate on memory alpha presumably because there wasn't one mentioned in the episode. The next episode "When It Rains" takes place right afterward and gives a stardate of 52684.3 which put in the stardate calculator you kindly linked for me gives the date of September 7, 2375, Time: 18:28:04.
One of the calendars someone linked here says that The Changing Face of Evil takes place august 8-10th 2375 and another version of the same calendar puts it in March 9-11 2376. I think this is based on an estimate of how much time elapsed during each episode and between each mentioned stardate.

Larry Nemecek's Stellar Cartography map shows it in a big box as Oct 2374, but down by Chin'toka there is no battle for Oct 2375.

Any ideas ?

 

[The Old Mixer]

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/rules-a-short-guide-to-posting-on-the-bbs.282269/

- Resurrecting dead threads. If you find a thread that has not had a post in it in over a year, don't post in it. Start a new thread instead. You can, if necessary, link back to the old thread if something crucial is in the thread.