Diane Duane's writing forgettable?
And yes, in recent years there have been several Pocket novels and novellas set in TNG's Mirror Universe.
Dolphin Crew Members as Show Regulars?
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Diane Duane's writing forgettable?
And yes, in recent years there have been several Pocket novels and novellas set in TNG's Mirror Universe.
And the countless humans that are jumping off cliffs, lighting themselves on fire, and countless other idiotic things that they'll never learn from are any better?
No. Humans would not only easily score 100% on that simple (from our perspective) test, but humans could score 100% on tests that all of those animals would score 0% on. As far as IQ tests intended for humans go, there isn't a critter in the world that could get a single question right.
Kaziarl said:
You're talking about suicidal people? Suicide, as destructive and ill-advised as it may be, indicates a higher level of thought process than any critter possesses. Suicide is usually the result of irrational emotions and/or ideals; emotions far more complex than critters experience.
Dolphins have continually approached boats and nets for ages. They have no concept of the consequences, much less can they communicate the concept to other members of their species in order to warn them of the danger.
john titor
Captain
Maybe they're suicidal dolphins?
No, I'm talking about people who will blow off one hand while playing with dynamite, then turn around and blow off the other hand in the interest of fun. Nothing to do with suicide.
Nor am I saying that humanity is dumb. What I am saying is that you are saying dolphins are stupid because a few of them are always getting caught in nets, when from an objective standpoint someone could say the same thing about humanity just by driving through the southern US.
^We very rarely get caught in nets.
A "few"? It is one of the things dolphins are most well known for. I'm reminded of their stupidity every time I see a tuna can that says "dolphin safe" on the side. Then there are the whales that aren't bright enough to steer clear of whaling ships.
The difference is, human intelligence is well-established already. Have you ever sat down and thought about the level of intelligence behind the hardware, software, protocols, infrastructure, etc., that allows us to even have this discussion in this format in the first place?
With humans in general, the evidence of intelligence far outweighs the evidence of stupidity. With dolphins we have evidence of stupidity and no evidence of intelligence beyond that of various other critters, all of which also happen to be easy to trap. And you can use the same methods to trap them indefinitely because they aren't bright enough to spread the word among themselves; that level of information being too complex for them to grasp and for their simple forms of communication to handle.
If aliens came here trying to catch humans, how many do you think they would get by dragging plainly visible nets laced with cheeseburgers from slow moving vehicles? You know what they would get for their efforts; even from (or perhaps, especially from) inhabitants of the Southern U.S.? People taking potshots at them with rifles from their windows.
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*sigh* the sad thing is I could actually see that working...
Anyway, please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that OUR dolphins are as smart as we are. But I still say that simply getting caught in nets on a regular basis shouldn't be the measure. Did you know that on those same boats, people are getting washed off the decks all the time, yet we never learn. Not only do we always keep going out there, but we can't figure out how to make a storm proof boat.
I know, a silly analogy, but most analogies are.
As for extra-terrestrial 'dolphins' why not? We've only seen one example of evolution on our world. Maybe instead of oposable(sp?) thumbs, dolphins of another world evolved some sort of telekinesis to manipulate the world around them on an equal, if not better level then we do ourselves.
In fairness, I think part of the reason they can't steer clear of whaling ships is because they can't distinguish between whaling ships and regular ships, and obviously they can't avoid crossing the paths of the tens of thousands of ships the human race employs in its ordinary commerce.
If you wanted to avoid being mugged, you could go live in a cave, which would effectively place you beyond the reach of muggers, but also the 99.9% of people you would otherwise meet who are not muggers.
If you wanted to avoid being mugged, you could go live in a cave, which would effectively place you beyond the reach of muggers, but also the 99.9% of people you would otherwise meet who are not muggers.
The oceans are huge and ships are comparatively tiny. Whales should have no trouble at all avoiding them. All they have to do is head off in the opposite direction and/or dive when they notice one. Keep in mind that they can outrun a whaling ship:
"Even so, the great size and speed of blues (at up to 25 knots -- or 29 miles per hour -- they went faster than whaling ships follow." - Conover, Adele. "The Object at Hand". Smithsonian. (October 1996): 28.
If you estimate say 10,000 ships at sea at any given time, that's only a density of about 1 ship per 7,000 square miles (an area about the size of New Jersey) in the Pacific Ocean.
Hm, true enough. But whales keep moving--the lines they form will inevitably intersect with ships. 10,000 is also a lowball estimate--I suspect that the actual number of vessels in the "human fleet" is even more substantial.
Plus, iirc they're often curious. This could be taken as either a sign of intelligence, or a sign of stupidity, depending on perspective and end result.
Plus, iirc they're often curious. This could be taken as either a sign of intelligence, or a sign of stupidity, depending on perspective and end result.
No.. unfortunately I can say that I've met a few people who would fall for such obvious traps. Its sad really, but not quite what we are discussing here.
One thing we are discussing is dolphins and tuna nets. For one, I have to wonder if they can even see the nets. I don't know how good there visual acuity is, but I have to imagine somewhat poor if they rely on echo location. And on that note, would the filaments of a net have enough surface area to react to the sound waves, and be perceived as anything more then a school of plankton?
I know nothing of these two subjects. Nor have I read anything on that particular aspect of dolphin physiology, so I'll leave that to the more knowledgeable members of the forum.
I doubt it highly; unless you are talking about people who would be considered mentally disabled.
All of that doesn't really matter either way, because before the dolphins get trapped in tuna nets, forty-eleven thousand tuna get trapped in said nets; the dolphins follow them into the trap. So even if they can't detect the nets, they can certainly detect trapped tuna. Also, they can definitely detect massive fishing boats on the surface. They obviously don't give any thought to the situation more complex than "I'm hungry" before barreling in after their meal.
BTW, in reference to your use of the word "few" earlier:
"Dolphin Mortality: Back in the sixties, seventies and early eighties, dolphin mortality rates in the purse seine fishery were shockingly high - more than a hundred thousand a year. Over the past 35 years, roughly 6 million dolphins of different species have died in the tuna nets." (Source: The US News & World Report)
6 million!
That might have been Peter David throwing in an in-joke reference to the Pakhars, a hamster-descended species who've appeared in some of the the Doctor Who novels.
--- Those "dolphin safe" cans are a sham, third world fishing fleets (their governments) protested to the WTO that the labels weren't fair, so they continue the put dolphin meat in their cans along with fish meat, but they are allowed to label those cans "dolphin free". Buy american.
To be fair, dolphins possess extremely poor eye sight and their sonar probably can't "see" the nets. That said, dolphins live and hunt in groups, if one is caught and others aren't -- and this MUST of happen at sometime in history -- the caught one would of cried out what was happening to it or the other dolphins would of observed, through sonar, the events.
There's a reason our ancestors stopped hunting large prides of loins.
I believe you have misunderstood what "dolphin safe" means. It was never about dolphin meat ending up in tuna cans, as that simply doesn't happen, and it never has. Dolphins are mammals, and tuna are not only fish, but a very unique tasting fish. Dolphin meat is more likely to taste like beef than any type of fish, and it would not have the same texture as fish either (i.e., it would not flake):
"In Taiji, the fishermen say that dolphin tastes like venison or beef." - http://www.japanfocus.org/-David-McNeill/2306
"Dolphin safe" is supposed to indicate that methods of fishing were used that did not harm dolphins. It has nothing to do with dolphin meat ending up in tuna cans, which has never been an issue (if it ever happened, you'd definitely notice it, as surely as you'd notice beef in a can of tuna).
I don't know what the point is that you're trying to make here.
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