Does "The Menagerie" still work now that we can watch "The Cage" by itself?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Jayson1, May 12, 2017.

  1. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We have no idea what is on anyone's mind, ever!
    But in this case, Vina's actions support her words.
     
  2. Tesophius

    Tesophius Captain Captain

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    I'm a big fan of both. The Cage is an amazing episode, one of my favorites, but Menagerie is almost as good. Both are among my TOS favorites.
     
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  3. TheAdmiralty

    TheAdmiralty Commander Red Shirt

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    When I was a kid in the 90's The Cage was always available and shown on TV sometimes, so I just thought of this one as "the one where they show scenes from The Cage". Part I is okay, Part II is just an annotated version of The Cage. Personally, I'd just assume watch The Cage.
     
  4. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I prefer The Menagerie myself as it has the current crew and a mystery of what exactly happened to the crew of the older Enterprise. In the end it seems to be wrapped up quite easily with only Vina's fate and her loneliness for us to wander about! But it does seem to offer up more than just another voyage and the like at first and Pike is then mentioned again in Mirror, Mirror!
    JB
    PS.I doubt the Talosians could even breed a new race of humans from the two crippled bodies of Pike and Vina, I think they genuinely cared for Pike as Spock said and they would give him the freedom to travel wherever his mind would take him!
     
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  5. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I believe the lack of the framing story rigamarole makes "The Cage" a stronger, better-structured standalone story.

    However, I prefer watching "The Menagerie" simply because the two parts make for a longer viewing experience, so I can sit back and make a movie night out of it.

    Kor
     
  6. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Admiral Admiral

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    Am I the only one who has a problem that part 2 doesn't have more TOS stuff in it? That's like what I said above. I think part 1 works better because Kirk and Spock have more to do and its just not them watching the pilot on tv.

    Jason
     
  7. WARLOCK1965

    WARLOCK1965 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Hope burns bright
     
  8. WARLOCK1965

    WARLOCK1965 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I thought the commander of the Star base was a Commodore Joseph Mendez where Fleet Captain Christopher Pike wad at
     
  9. Gojira

    Gojira Commodore Commodore

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    When I was a kid the Menagerie was a favorite episode and although I still enjoy it a great deal it has many problems for me. Spock pretty much commits mutiny and is simply forgiven and his behavior certainly wasn't logical.
     
  10. WARLOCK1965

    WARLOCK1965 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It was duty to a friend and former commander to see that Pike was to have his dreams to be real for him and Pike dream was to be undamage and free so Spock help him go were that could happen with help from the Talosians and their wish to help
     
  11. Gojira

    Gojira Commodore Commodore

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    That brings up another point. The Cage and therefore the Menagerie both depict the Talotians as cruel bad guys to put it simply, but now we're supposed to believe they're benevolent? That is a bit of a stretch.
     
  12. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Jose. No ph.
     
  13. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Admiral Admiral

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    Well we do have that one moment were one of them says" Is our deaths not sufficent" I think when Pike is yelling at them while escaping. They could be cruel but I think with that line and the fact that they are willing to help Vina shows they aren't all bad. Plus they had 10 years or so to reflect on their actions from the pilot though you would think they might change their outfits at least once over 10 years.

    Jason
     
  14. Gojira

    Gojira Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, those are good points.
     
  15. GNDN18

    GNDN18 270 Rear Admiral

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    The Talosians were an advanced but socially atrophied civilization. Vina, nearly killed by the wreck of the Columbia, lived with them 18 years after they saved her. I believe that a true relationship developed between Vina and her rescuers.

    Both she and the Talosians had a similar desire: she wanted human companionship and they needed breeding stock. The deception employed to lure Enterprise and Pike to Talos IV could easily have been a joint venture.

    Pike proved to be a difficult catch, though, and Vina and the Talosians never leveled with him. Generations of illusions might make one a bit manipulative, I suppose.

    [​IMG]

    The scene shown above suggests the existence of a plot. Vina—and the Talosians—thought that the Rigel VII experience would jump start a romantic relationship. It's telling that the Keeper thought Vina would be more interesting to Pike than the safety of his crew, but that fits with their misunderstanding of human motivations.

    On the contrary, Pike doubted Vina's physical reality. At this point, the Keeper emerges:

    PIKE: They'll need a pair of humans too. Where do they get intend to get the Earth woman?
    VINA: You said that if I answered questions…
    PIKE: But that was a bargain with something that didn't exist. You said you weren't real, remember?
    VINA: I'm a woman as real and as human as you are. We are like Adam and Eve. If we. No, please, no! Don't punish me! I'll die! (disappears)

    Now Pike is convinced that she is real and that his interrogation led to her punishment. From this point forward Pike becomes more protective of—and attracted to—Vina.

    The denouement of the episode suggests that the Talosians cared for Vina in their own way. It seems unlikely that they would have to continually torture her. Rather, after 40 years of thinking about this, it seems to me that she and her captors were actually co-conspirators and Pike was the mark.

    Unfortunately for all, Captain Pike was already a captive of the Enterprise. It was, after all, the only life available to him.
     
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  16. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Somehow The Talosians made mental contact with Spock after they discovered the fate of Captain Pike. Knowing that he wouldn't and now couldn't help them reclaim the surface of their planet with his progeny (not that Vina looked capable of that anyway) they offered him a life with them freed of his physical difficulties and to live the rest of his days in a 'normal' human life!
    JB
     
  17. WARLOCK1965

    WARLOCK1965 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Dreams become reality and the true reality becomes a bad dream
     
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