Does "The Menagerie" still work now that we can watch "The Cage" by itself?

[Vger23]

I enjoy both.

Yup.

 

[Prax]

I like the Menagerie better I guess. Well, everything except that stupid wheelchair. Could the Talosians heal Pike then? Did Pike exchange his freedom for his health?

 

[Timo]

All the Talosians offered onscreen was the illusion of health. Which would be consistent with what they had to offer for Vina, although if they lied once, they'd do wisely to lie twice.

Pike did exchange his health for his freedom, sort of: he lost the former and gained the latter. He's freer now than ever, able to do basically whatever he wishes while previously he was not.

What the Talosians actually do with the two cripples remains unknown. Water them periodically and turn them to sunlight? Exploit their bodies in a scheme of creating a slave race (not gonna work!)? Exploit their minds in a scheme of X?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[KyleCampbell]

An interesting choice Pike had to make. Live trapped in his broken body or live an illusion fabricated by an alien species that keeps other species captive for their own entertainment.

 

[Prax]

I think Arturis was a Talosian.

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

They both work satisfyingly as is. If you prefer one less, then don't watch it.

 

[johnnybear]

They were playing the "no emotions" card as early as WNMHGB

and Mudd's Women

And of course in the Naked Time we see Spock in "melt down mode".

Maybe it was after The Naked Time that Spock decided to keep any of his emotions to himself and let not one smile break his lips!
JB

 

[ironnerd]

Everything that happened after TOS ended is, in fact, an illusion projected by the Talosians. They are, sadly, dying from an unknown mental plague, which seems to coincide with Voyager, Enterprise, and Discovery.

 

[Jayson1]

Everything that happened after TOS ended is, in fact, an illusion projected by the Talosians. They are, sadly, dying from an unknown mental plague, which seems to coincide with Voyager, Enterprise, and Discovery.

Just the way Benny Russell wrote it when he invented the Trek universe back in the 50's. What people don't know is the Benny Russell who wrote this was actually a fictional character as well written by a Benny Russell from the 1970's in the "Galaxy Quest" universe who was inspired to write a show about a writer writing a show that is loosely based on his own favorite show!

Jason

 

[WARLOCK1965]

Use to when you watch the episodes, part of the appeal was getting to see the Enterprise with a different captain and younger Spock but now doesn't some of this stuff fill more like a clip show than it use to? I think the first part still holds up because you got Pike in the wheelchair with the beeping sound which is iconic Trek imagery and you got Spock stealing the ship and abducting Pike and Kirk and Mendez going after them in a shuttlecraft. I love the scene were Spock surrenders to McCoy.
The second part though seems to be just everyone watching "The Cage" on a viewscreen and not much more. I don't think it works except the ending were Pike gets to go be with Vina again.

Jason

It shows spock loyalty to a former commander to help at all costs to himself and that shows how Vulcan see duty

 

[WARLOCK1965]

I prefer "The Menagerie" because it reveals another side to Spock--that even a Vulcan can sometimes value friendship above logic, placing the needs of the one over the needs of the many.

True Vulcan ways

 

[Mojochi]

I feel the only relevant way it might have depreciated is that they include much more of The Cage in it than is necessary to tell the story, which is slightly more noticeable now that The Cage is as available as any other episode

But despite a bit of superfluous footage, it holds up very well, IMHO, and is still a favorite of mine. What I like the most is that while The Cage is a Pike episode, even with all the Cage footage, The Menagerie is a Spock episode, one that is pretty captivating actually. His loyalty here is a trait you just don't expect to see from him

 

[WARLOCK1965]

I feel the only relevant way it might have depreciated is that they include much more of The Cage in it than is necessary to tell the story, which is slightly more noticeable now that The Cage is as available as any other episode

But despite a bit of superfluous footage, it holds up very well, IMHO, and is still a favorite of mine. What I like the most is that while The Cage is a Pike episode, even with all the Cage footage, The Menagerie is a Spock episode, one that is pretty captivating actually. His loyalty here is a trait you just don't expect to see from him

The Cage stands because the was showing of possibles for equality of the races and sexs of humans and peaceful get a long with aliens races too. It was also the first time ever the a new plot to be ordered for any show to bad the network brass was not into the idea but the fans are

 

[TonyC]

So what? If they pressed Vina into the "correct shape" mold, she would die. Getting her spine working and bending it straight would be mutually exclusive things - or at least they are that today.



This was never an issue. But Vina would have no idea what a normal human looked like from inside. Meaning the Talosians would have to stumble their way through making a spine work, rendering it incapable of ever being straight again.



I very much doubt that. Really, I think we can safely bet 0% of TrekBBS participants would have enough knowledge that, if telepathically zapped, would allow a nonhuman surgeon to build a functioning let alone nice-looking human.

We might speculate that Vina was in fact the chief surgeon of the Columbia. But this is highly unlikely. Why wouldn't this criterion have been brought up? Why was she listed as adult "crewman"?



At an obvious price. Heck, I doubt human surgery would have done much better.

Although this all hinges on the idea that we can take the Talosians on their word. Perhaps Vina was disfigured, perhaps not. Perhaps she survived the crash, perhaps not. Perhaps the Talosians wanted Pike for inseminating Vina's children, perhaps not. Perhaps a Vina did once exist even though she died in the crash, perhaps even the crew roster was an illusion. After all, we already got clear confirmation that Vina's looks and words are false more often than not, and that even existence is unconvincing in the Talosian case.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, it looks like we can say that the Talosians couldn't help her beyond what they did, however, IF she had went with Pike back to the ship, could Dr. Bryce, and 23rd C. medicine/surgery help her?

The reason I ask is her spine. I had a 32 degree curve in my spine that NO ONE detected until it was too far gone to try to brace, so surgery was needed. For one reason or another, probably my use and dependence on steroids to breathe (I'm a chronic severe asthmatic) made my bones and spine weaker. I had to have a minimum bone density percentage to even have the surgery. (I had it, and my back has never been the same again. The rods in my spine (27) are from upper back to pelvic bone) and now I have to have a repair because some of them are growing into my bone.

If spinal surgeons could get me 95% straight in my spine, could she be operated on, and her spine fixed, skin grafts for her, remove the humpback..or do you think she wouldn't be able to handle the procedures?

I did remember she did die - sometime prior to 2320. (TOS novel: Burning Dreams)

 

[WARLOCK1965]

Well, it looks like we can say that the Talosians couldn't help her beyond what they did, however, IF she had went with Pike back to the ship, could Dr. Bryce, and 23rd C. medicine/surgery help her?

The reason I ask is her spine. I had a 32 degree curve in my spine that NO ONE detected until it was too far gone to try to brace, so surgery was needed. For one reason or another, probably my use and dependence on steroids to breathe (I'm a chronic severe asthmatic) made my bones and spine weaker. I had to have a minimum bone density percentage to even have the surgery. (I had it, and my back has never been the same again. The rods in my spine (27) are from upper back to pelvic bone) and now I have to have a repair because some of them are growing into my bone.

If spinal surgeons could get me 95% straight in my spine, could she be operated on, and her spine fixed, skin grafts for her, remove the humpback..or do you think she wouldn't be able to handle the procedures?

I did remember she did die - sometime prior to 2320. (TOS novel: Burning Dreams)

She may have been afraid of being seen as she was and just wish to stay there because it was her home for so long

 

[Mytran]

Indeed - the apparent message of The Cage was that if you are ugly, you should hide yourself away and pretend you are pretty!

 

[WARLOCK1965]

Well, it looks like we can say that the Talosians couldn't help her beyond what they did, however, IF she had went with Pike back to the ship, could Dr. Bryce, and 23rd C. medicine/surgery help her?

The reason I ask is her spine. I had a 32 degree curve in my spine that NO ONE detected until it was too far gone to try to brace, so surgery was needed. For one reason or another, probably my use and dependence on steroids to breathe (I'm a chronic severe asthmatic) made my bones and spine weaker. I had to have a minimum bone density percentage to even have the surgery. (I had it, and my back has never been the same again. The rods in my spine (27) are from upper back to pelvic bone) and now I have to have a repair because some of them are growing into my bone.

If spinal surgeons could get me 95% straight in my spine, could she be operated on, and her spine fixed, skin grafts for her, remove the humpback..or do you think she wouldn't be able to handle the procedures?

I did remember she did die - sometime prior to 2320. (TOS novel: Burning Dreams)

She may have been afraid of being seen as she was and just wish to stay there because it was her home for so long

Indeed - the apparent message of The Cage was that if you are ugly, you should hide yourself away and pretend you are pretty!

No she didn't know what it would be like and she could have been a afaid but she knew how it was on Talosians and it was her home ; safe home for her and home is were the heart is.

 

[scotpens]

What the Talosians actually do with the two cripples remains unknown. Water them periodically and turn them to sunlight?

Oooh, tacky.

 

[Mytran]

...No she didn't know what it would be like and she could have been a afraid but she knew how it was on Talosians and it was her home ; safe home for her and home is were the heart is.

That's not what she said in the episode however. Just after Vina is revealed as a scarred, misshapen older woman she tells Pike:

VINA: You see why I can't go with you.
MAGISTRATE: This is the female's true appearance.
VINA: They found me in the wreckage, dying. A lump of flesh. They rebuilt me. Everything works. But they had never seen a human. They had no guide for putting me back together.
MAGISTRATE: It was necessary to convince you her desire to stay is an honest one.
PIKE: You'll give her back her illusion of beauty?

(emphasis mine)

Nothing about Vina's fears for coping in a strange new world; everything about the way she looks and how the best course of action for the future is to hide her physical appearance.

 

[WARLOCK1965]

That's not what she said in the episode however. Just after Vina is revealed as a scarred, misshapen older woman she tells Pike:


(emphasis mine)

Nothing about Vina's fears for coping in a strange new world; everything about the way she looks and how the best course of action for the future is to hide her physical appearance.

True but anyone truly know what might be in her mind. If she was to leave the planets she would be limited to the real world ; if she stays her dreams will be her real to her and in the dreams all that she would want to have is hers.