Does nuTrek Spock scare you?

[ManOnTheWave]

TOS era Prime Spock was a stoic with a streak of ruthlessness. He was also basically on the verge of erupting his repressed emotions at any given time often in violent rage. NuSpock clearly has issues, but lacks the same intensity. I like the character; don't get me wrong. But he doesn't scare me.

 

[Commishsleer]

TOS era Prime Spock was a stoic with a streak of ruthlessness. He was also basically on the verge of erupting his repressed emotions at any given time often in violent rage.

Aside from the times he was drugged/under the influence I don't feel Prime Spock was on the edge.
Certainly not in the movies except for the scene with Valeris and thats just anger not rage.

He showed remarkable restraint in not punching out McCoy several times in TOS. If he was practically on the edge at any given time in TOS McCoy would probably be dead by now.

I'm thinking maybe in the Platonian episode he was pretty upset but thats just one episode. And in the end he joined Kirk in not really retaliating against them.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Spock metaphorically punched McCoy all the time. Many were KOs.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, not to quibble, but the Romulan was not dying but stunned, though I see your point. For Pike, I think it was to provide measure of comfort in his last moments rather than an invasive probing of his mind, like Valeris, or even the Romulan.

His meld in STiD wasn't about comforting, it was about his own (selfish) desire to know Pike's fears. Also, I should add that Spock tried to meld with Khan during their final battle -- *that* one was on par with Valeris (perhaps even worse).

Someone addressed this, but this is a matter of personal interpretation. Spock merely relates what he learned about Pike's state of mind before death, not why he did it. Again, Spock had no words of comfort to offer, but he felt a mind meld may provide some measure of logical serenity. This is my interpretation, but I don't see it as selfish or intrusive. YMMV.

Also, in battle with a genetically engineered superman, should you not use all resources to win the battle?

In STID, Spock was nearly killed by Khan a few times.
He was losing the fight until Uhura stunned Khan and Spock temporarily got the upper hand. Was he supposed to let him go then? Spock saw Khan in action on the Klingon planet. He had to go for the kill. Anything less and he took the risk of Khan escaping again.

Phasers can stun, even Khan. He didn't need to personally deliver a beat-down.

The heroism of Spock, what makes him larger than life, are the times when he shows stoicism and restraint at a moment where most humans would lose their cool. nuSpock lacks this quality. The example I like to cite in contrast is how Spock steadies himself after he thinks he's killed Kirk in Amok Time and says he's ready to accept the consequences. nuSpock would have fallen to his knees and cried. By making nuSpock more human, they made him less special. The pleasure of watching Spock in those moments of TOS (which Nimoy himself attests to) was the way the audience looks for a faint glimmer of emotion behind the facade, whether Nimoy is providing a hint of it or not. Those subtleties are missing from nuSpock. Instead JJ seems to be putting forth the conventional Dr. Phil notion that suppressing emotions is unnatural and weak and that the only way to have Spock grow is to have him blow his stack or cry like a baby. The script tips its hand pretty overtly in the lover's quarrel between Spock and Uhura on the pseudo-millenium falcon. nuSpock sounds almost apologetic over his nature, almost saying that he's been effectively abused by his childhood in being raised that way. Vulcan logic is presented as merely a character flaw, not as something that has any intrinsic merit. TOS and the movies say that logic does have merit, and that vulcans are worthy of respect for achieving their discipline, but for Spock it isn't the be-all-end-all.

I'm sorry, but I don't see nuSpock like that at all, or that as Abrams approach. I don't think nuSpock is as subtle, because he isn't as mature. He doesn't have the lid on the emotions that prime Spock did, nor the years of experience that taught him how to balance his reactions to things.

Number 2, why are we judging Spock for being angry? He lost his home world, he lost his mother, and he lost superior officer, all in the span of a year. I'm sorry, maybe it's just me, but it seems understandable that if all this bad stuff were happening, I would be upset too.

I don't think Abrams is treating emotions that they must be expressed, but rather that Spock is under intense pressure, possibly dealing with depression (wishing to die is not considered healthy), and that Kirk's death was the last straw. I'm sorry, but even Vulcans can only take so much. Heck, we saw that in DS9.

If Vulcan logic is such a horrible thing in Abrams movies, then why is Sarek presented as such a wise father figure? Why does he get some of the most poignant lines in that whole film?

Also, for prime Spock, logic was an end game, for a time. He wanted to undergo the Kholinar ritual to purge ALL emotion. He only gave up on it have recognizing that he would be losing something and encountering V'Ger.

Finally, Khan cannot be stunned by phasers, at least not easily. He resisted several shots, as well as a Vulcan nerve pinch. I think we can conclude that Spock was faced with limited options.

Well, not to quibble, but the Romulan was not dying but stunned, though I see your point. For Pike, I think it was to provide measure of comfort in his last moments rather than an invasive probing of his mind, like Valeris, or even the Romulan.

His meld in STiD wasn't about comforting, it was about his own (selfish) desire to know Pike's fears. Also, I should add that Spock tried to meld with Khan during their final battle -- *that* one was on par with Valeris (perhaps even worse).

In STID, Spock was nearly killed by Khan a few times.
He was losing the fight until Uhura stunned Khan and Spock temporarily got the upper hand. Was he supposed to let him go then? Spock saw Khan in action on the Klingon planet. He had to go for the kill. Anything less and he took the risk of Khan escaping again.

Phasers can stun, even Khan. He didn't need to personally deliver a beat-down.

The heroism of Spock, what makes him larger than life, are the times when he shows stoicism and restraint at a moment where most humans would lose their cool. nuSpock lacks this quality. The example I like to cite in contrast is how Spock steadies himself after he thinks he's killed Kirk in Amok Time and says he's ready to accept the consequences. nuSpock would have fallen to his knees and cried. By making nuSpock more human, they made him less special. The pleasure of watching Spock in those moments of TOS (which Nimoy himself attests to) was the way the audience looks for a faint glimmer of emotion behind the facade, whether Nimoy is providing a hint of it or not. Those subtleties are missing from nuSpock. Instead JJ seems to be putting forth the conventional Dr. Phil notion that suppressing emotions is unnatural and weak and that the only way to have Spock grow is to have him blow his stack or cry like a baby. The script tips its hand pretty overtly in the lover's quarrel between Spock and Uhura on the pseudo-millenium falcon. nuSpock sounds almost apologetic over his nature, almost saying that he's been effectively abused by his childhood in being raised that way. Vulcan logic is presented as merely a character flaw, not as something that has any intrinsic merit. TOS and the movies say that logic does have merit, and that vulcans are worthy of respect for achieving their discipline, but for Spock it isn't the be-all-end-all.

In STID, Spock was nearly killed by Khan a few times.
He was losing the fight until Uhura stunned Khan and Spock temporarily got the upper hand. Was he supposed to let him go then? Spock saw Khan in action on the Klingon planet. He had to go for the kill. Anything less and he took the risk of Khan escaping again.

Phasers can stun, even Khan. He didn't need to personally deliver a beat-down.

The heroism of Spock, what makes him larger than life, are the times when he shows stoicism and restraint at a moment where most humans would lose their cool. nuSpock lacks this quality. The example I like to cite in contrast is how Spock steadies himself after he thinks he's killed Kirk in Amok Time and says he's ready to accept the consequences. nuSpock would have fallen to his knees and cried. By making nuSpock more human, they made him less special. The pleasure of watching Spock in those moments of TOS (which Nimoy himself attests to) was the way the audience looks for a faint glimmer of emotion behind the facade, whether Nimoy is providing a hint of it or not. Those subtleties are missing from nuSpock. Instead JJ seems to be putting forth the conventional Dr. Phil notion that suppressing emotions is unnatural and weak and that the only way to have Spock grow is to have him blow his stack or cry like a baby. The script tips its hand pretty overtly in the lover's quarrel between Spock and Uhura on the pseudo-millenium falcon. nuSpock sounds almost apologetic over his nature, almost saying that he's been effectively abused by his childhood in being raised that way. Vulcan logic is presented as merely a character flaw, not as something that has any intrinsic merit. TOS and the movies say that logic does have merit, and that vulcans are worthy of respect for achieving their discipline, but for Spock it isn't the be-all-end-all.

I agree with you.
Nimoys spin on Spock makes him such a special character that has survived 40 years of pop culture.

But JJ hasn't gone that way. Either he never understood TOS Spock or he thinks 21st century audiences can't relate to him.

nuSpock is as subtle as a brick. But some people seem to like him that way. I'm not criticising Quinto here - hes doing what they tell him.

Nimoy Spock apparently invented the nerve pinch in order to avoid his character being involved in fisticuffs. And it was cool. Kirk got into scuffles and Spock for the most part regally looked on. nuSpock just joins in the fights.

I judge nuSpock by human standards. His actions in ST09 and STID are not unreasonable for a human. Khan had been stunned before and got up. Spock had to stop Khan at any cost. If he grabbed the phaser and set it to kill he would have also been justified but not been a gallant Starfleet Officer,

nuSpock has different experiences and different reactions, so I would not expect him to behave as prime Spock. Nimoy had 40 years to originate and perfect a character, while Quinto is stepping in to rather large shoes. I think he has done a fine job.

Also, since when is grabbing a phaser and setting it to kill against a threat not "gallant?"

Picard and Riker

Kirk

Spock versus the Romulans

Tuvok versus the Q

Etc, etc. Sorry, but Starfleet officers face deadly threats. This includes the Vulcans.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Phasers can stun, even Khan.

Um, were we watching the same movie, becuase Khan was shrugging off phaser stuns rather easily, hell he walked off a nerve pinch for pete's sake.

This always bothered me. The interpretation of Khan as a genetically-engineered superman turned into him *being* Superman. Repeated phaser blasts do nothing to him, but a well-placed steel plate in the face can drop him? Doesn't say much for 23rd century weapons.

Khan's superpowers were at the whim of plot, which in my books suspended disbelief a bit too much.

 

[OpenMaw]

The heroism of Spock, what makes him larger than life, are the times when he shows stoicism and restraint at a moment where most humans would lose their cool. nuSpock lacks this quality. The example I like to cite in contrast is how Spock steadies himself after he thinks he's killed Kirk in Amok Time and says he's ready to accept the consequences. nuSpock would have fallen to his knees and cried. By making nuSpock more human, they made him less special. The pleasure of watching Spock in those moments of TOS (which Nimoy himself attests to) was the way the audience looks for a faint glimmer of emotion behind the facade, whether Nimoy is providing a hint of it or not. Those subtleties are missing from nuSpock. Instead JJ seems to be putting forth the conventional Dr. Phil notion that suppressing emotions is unnatural and weak and that the only way to have Spock grow is to have him blow his stack or cry like a baby. The script tips its hand pretty overtly in the lover's quarrel between Spock and Uhura on the pseudo-millenium falcon. nuSpock sounds almost apologetic over his nature, almost saying that he's been effectively abused by his childhood in being raised that way. Vulcan logic is presented as merely a character flaw, not as something that has any intrinsic merit. TOS and the movies say that logic does have merit, and that vulcans are worthy of respect for achieving their discipline, but for Spock it isn't the be-all-end-all.

Well said!

 

[Commishsleer]

Also, since when is grabbing a phaser and setting it to kill against a threat not "gallant?"

Picard and Riker

Kirk

Spock versus the Romulans

Tuvok versus the Q

Etc, etc. Sorry, but Starfleet officers face deadly threats. This includes the Vulcans.

When a policeman shoots a fleeing killer in the back it doesn't look that gallant although it is necessary.

Seeing your hero bash someone to death still doesn't look great. Or even phasering a man on the ground into oblivion.

 

[Malaika]

There is plenty of subtlety too in Quinto's performance, but if you're stuck about the whole 'feelings' and 'no feelings' idea you might not notice NuSpock's 'inner life'. A lot of people certaintly do since he's still a favorite for many. I saw critics and fans alike consider him the real 'hero' of these movies even though the promotion of this franchise tends to still give that role to Kirk.

anyway, I really can't see this Spock being exactly like tos Spock. Unless you don't believe in that thing called free will, I do believe that people are in large part shaped by circumstances. At their core, these two Spock are the same person and yet they're two very separate people with their own integrity to respect.
and I don't need to make a list of all the things that happened to this Spock that never happened to the other... but those things surely are enough to justify why his emotional development is 'accelerated' here

Prime Spock too eventually got to a point when he realized that his logic was a bit of an illusion and he more peacefully accepted that he had feelings. Why you think he couldn't complete Kolinahr in both realities?
tos Spock's own perception of the vulcans was shaped by his own experience with the vulcans and his condition as a hybrid that made him wrongly believe that his feelings (and thus the obstacle to his logic) were only human when we, in fact, know that vulcans do have feelings too. Perhaps that was due to his difficult relationship with Sarek too.
For example, his father never admitted to him that he had feelings too and he loved Amanda. That, alone, change something here..
So, I don't think that setting nuSpock too in that path where he is essentially pretending to be someone that he could never be is a good idea or would make so much sense for this Spock too.

making him too much like tos Spock is also going backwards IMO
Even Nimoy said that his character wasn't that developed. The protagonist was Kirk not him and thus his character development would always be secondary to that of the human hero and the friendship he shared with him.
In the reboot he's upgraded to main character so you might be actually allowed to see different sides of him you weren't allowed to see before.

Also, his 'alieness' is perhaps developed with a more modern approach too.
In the 60s, Spock had to be the nerdy friend of hero the way nerdy friends of hero/sidekicks were developed at the time. Making him weird and alien was fun and it also gave to McCoy, the other sidekick, a pretext to be the politically incorrect white human that reiterated with his banter with Spock that the latter was weird and thus an outsider. Still, Spock was no doubt a bit limited by that old formula and I honestly think that a lot of the potential of his character was wasted. Retrospectively, in Spock many saw an allegory of the way poc had always been treated in media too.
Nowadays, it shouldn't be exactly like that anymore because some things changed.
It's like, IDK, complaining that a gay character from a movie made in 2014 isn't stereotyped enough (like they were 40 years ago) for you to buy them as a LGBT person.
Not the same thing, but the concept is similar. Just because something was done in a certain way in the 60s it doesn't mean it should be done like that now too. Just because something worked in the 60s it doesn't mean it will still work for a nowadays audience. In the end, I don't think that a modern reboot must follow the same rules and 'respect the limits' that a story written in the 60s had.

and as much as the reboot can be flawed and there is a lot we can criticize in these movie, one can't deny that they 'worked' and were successful when many thought that a reboot would be a complete fail or that star trek was dead.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Khan's superpowers were at the whim of plot, which in my books suspended disbelief a bit too much.

Yeah becuase Prime Universe Augments have never done absurd things like crushing phasers with their bare hands, or wiping the floor with Klingons on their own ships, or wiping the floor with MACOs

Khan's a genetically enhanced superman what the hell do you expect a guy with normal strength and endurance?

 

[Timewalker]

Prime Spock seemed to have a calm demeanor about him.

A pointy eared guy screaming "The women!" is a guy with a calm demeanor to you?

It was the very first episode they'd ever made. Lots of characterizations change between pilot and regular series. The movies are based on the entirety of TOS, plus at least one TAS episode.

TOS era Prime Spock was a stoic with a streak of ruthlessness. He was also basically on the verge of erupting his repressed emotions at any given time often in violent rage. NuSpock clearly has issues, but lacks the same intensity. I like the character; don't get me wrong. But he doesn't scare me.

What?!

Original Spock was often berated by his fellow crewmembers for not expressing emotions in situations where humans thought emotions - especially violent ones - were appropriate.

NuSpock is the one with rage issues.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Khan's superpowers were at the whim of plot, which in my books suspended disbelief a bit too much.

Yeah becuase Prime Universe Augments have never done absurd things like crushing phasers with their bare hands, or wiping the floor with Klingons on their own ships, or wiping the floor with MACOs

I don't know what any of those things are (aside from a phaser). Anything beyond TNG = nonsense and ignore.

Khan's a genetically enhanced superman what the hell do you expect a guy with normal strength and endurance?

He should still be able to be taken down by a phaser. Superhuman or not.

 

[M'Sharak]

Khan's superpowers were at the whim of plot, which in my books suspended disbelief a bit too much.

Yeah becuase Prime Universe Augments have never done absurd things like crushing phasers with their bare hands, or wiping the floor with Klingons on their own ships, or wiping the floor with MACOs

I don't know what any of those things are (aside from a phaser). Anything beyond TNG = nonsense and ignore.

Khan's a genetically enhanced superman what the hell do you expect a guy with normal strength and endurance?

He should still be able to be taken down by a phaser. Superhuman or not.

Just like Roga Danar?

His enhancements were of a different sort, yet he too proved extraordinarily resistant to (24th-century) phasers on stun setting.

 

[Mudd]

The heroism of Spock, what makes him larger than life, are the times when he shows stoicism and restraint at a moment where most humans would lose their cool. nuSpock lacks this quality.

That's arrant nonsense.

 

[fireproof78]

Also, since when is grabbing a phaser and setting it to kill against a threat not "gallant?"

Picard and Riker

Kirk

Spock versus the Romulans

Tuvok versus the Q

Etc, etc. Sorry, but Starfleet officers face deadly threats. This includes the Vulcans.

When a policeman shoots a fleeing killer in the back it doesn't look that gallant although it is necessary.

Seeing your hero bash someone to death still doesn't look great. Or even phasering a man on the ground into oblivion.

I'm curious to know then what Spock's reaction should have been? At what point does fighting become gallant?


On a different note, as a general question, and not directed at any one person, if your whole planet was destroyed, would you not have rage issues too? Why should nuSpock accept everything in the same manner as Prime Spock?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yeah becuase Prime Universe Augments have never done absurd things like crushing phasers with their bare hands, or wiping the floor with Klingons on their own ships, or wiping the floor with MACOs

I don't know what any of those things are (aside from a phaser). Anything beyond TNG = nonsense and ignore.

Khan's a genetically enhanced superman what the hell do you expect a guy with normal strength and endurance?

He should still be able to be taken down by a phaser. Superhuman or not.

Just like Roga Danar?

His enhancements were of a different sort, yet he too proved extraordinarily resistant to (24th-century) phasers on stun setting.

And if I remember correctly he was resistant to force fields too

 

[Mudd]

The stuff after TNG is no more nonsensical than stuff before, so that remark is a nonstarter.

There's no reason to think that oldTrek Khan didn't have some resistance to the phaser stun setting.

 

[OpenMaw]

The heroism of Spock, what makes him larger than life, are the times when he shows stoicism and restraint at a moment where most humans would lose their cool. nuSpock lacks this quality.

That's arrant nonsense.

Not really. Though I wouldn't say nuSpock necessarily lacks that quality, it's just that the contrasts are much much higher in the new version of that character. In that regard the subtleties are muddled a bit to keep things big for a general audience.

 

[fireproof78]

The heroism of Spock, what makes him larger than life, are the times when he shows stoicism and restraint at a moment where most humans would lose their cool. nuSpock lacks this quality.

That's arrant nonsense.

Not really. Though I wouldn't say nuSpock necessarily lacks that quality, it's just that the contrasts are much much higher in the new version of that character. In that regard the subtleties are muddled a bit to keep things big for a general audience.

I think it depends on the scene, and what it requires. There are times when there is over-the-top emoting, and times when it is a subdued reaction, as Spock processes what has just occurred.

Like you said, though, it isn't lacking but underdeveloped due to lack of maturity.

 

[Spockkirk]

I say he has every right to be peed off and emotional I know I would be.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

He'd scare me more if he were CONSTANTLY SHOUTING!