Does having a non-officer in the "Chief of Operations" position make sense?

[at Quark's]

Maybe a system where depending on your role within society, you might be eligible to live in certain properties or "earn" them? An officer within Starfleet might be eligible for a bigger apartment with a nicer view than a normal civilian.

Data mentions in that future (*) in AGT that living in Newton's original house is one of the perks of holding the Lucasian chair, so we know this to be true for at least some positions.

(*) This future might just be a Q illusion. However, Picard seems to accept Data's statement without any surprise or problem.

 

[Farscape One]

Rank doesn't seem to matter as much as position... except for captain.

Voyager... Torres was made Chief Engineer and was a Lt. j.g., but she had at least one full Lt. serving under her. (Carey) We also saw Kim order Lt. Baxter in "TWISTED", and since both were full Starfleet (Baxter had pips, not the Maquis bar), it's pretty clear position overrides rank. (There's plenty of examples of this in the franchise.)

Considering O'Brien's experience, both with Cardassians and engineering, I don't see Starfleet having any issue with him being Chief of Operations, even as the years went on. Especially as the years went on, since he was getting more and more experience on DS9. (This was Necheyev's reason why Jellico was put in command instead of Riker in "Chain Of Command", so having a lot of experience in an area or with a particular alien can be a huge factor on where you are posted and in what position.)

 

[Lynx]

We see a Starfleet engineer working under O'Brien in Babel.

There are also other yellow-shouldered crew who at least seem to be non-security (but hard to be sure with background crew, of course) in other early eps, such as in Emissary and Dax. They could be enlisted though, naturally.

I have always wondered why Security sorts unde Engineering and not under Command.

I think that the best would be if Security was an own branch with, let us say green uniforms.

Fifty Starfleet people on DS9? Now that I think about it, whenever they evacuated it makes sense I guess, but for some reason I assumed it was about a thousand people if not more. Wow.

I always thought that it was about 100-150 Starfleet personnel on the station.

Actually, it might not be that much of a pay bump. Currently the IRL USN pays a Senior Chief between $63k and $89k versus $69k to $116k for a Lieutenant Commander, so given that he would have had to spend some time as an Ensign and Lieutenant before making it to Lieutenant Commander, he could easily have lost money in the short term. And that's even assuming that Starfleet personnel get paid at all (no, I don't think it's necessary to debate that or the obviously related point here).



What, other than possibly money, would be the benefit. He's been quite clear that the social aspects of officer rank don't appeal to him and he doesn't seem like he'd enjoy being a middle manager.



Well, saluting isn't part of Starfleet protocol FWIW, but O'Brien has never struggled to get the respect of senior officers, never mind juniors, so I don't see him being that hung up on the issue that represents.

But money isn't an issue in the Federation. Or is it?

"Full dress uniform, fine table linens, a different fork for every course? Thanks but no thanks. That's why I stayed an enlisted man. They don't expect me to show up for these formal dinners." - Miles Edward O'Brien.

But you were a Lieutenant on the Enterprise, dear Miles!

Keiko referred to Miles as being promoted in order to get on DS9.

What!
Wasn't he demoted before ending up on DS9?

And all this brings us back to if Miles were demoted on the Enterprise and why?
In the first season of TNG he's actually an ensign with one pip.

In season 2 of TNG he has two pips on his collar and is adressed by Riker as Lieutenant.

he wears the pips of Lieutenant until season 6 of TNG when he all of a sudden is wearing a single hollow pip whic obviously is the rank of a Warrant Officer!

He continues to wear that single hollow pip during the first seasons of DS9, actually joking that "if Nog graduates from Starfleet Academy, I must adress him as Sir".

In season 4 of DS9 he gets a new rank insignia, reminding of a Sergeant's insignia.

So what did poor Miles do to be demoted? Did he spike Picards Earl Grey with Irish Whiskey? Or did he reveal Riker having an affair with some married female Ensign?

And note these comments from the episode Defiant when Tom Riker, pretending to be Will Riker enters the Defiant together with Kira and finds O'Brein there:

O' BRIEN: l was doing some extra work on the deflector targeting arrays.
Commander, l heard you were aboard, but l...

TOM RIKER: l've nothing to say to you. l think you know why.

KIRA: Maybe we should come back another time.

O'Brien: No, Major, it's all right. l was just leaving.

KIRA: Commander.
What was that all about?

TOM RIKER: lt's a long story. l'd rather not get into it.

So why weren't Miles upset about "Will Riker's" behavior against him? Had something happened between them which Tom Riker knew about and was using it to get rid of O'Brien.

And why that new rank insignia in Hippocratic Oath. Was he demoted to Sergeant by Sisko for throwing some tool at Jake when Jake failed to obey him or what? Or did he cough in the wrong tune on a Friday morning briefing:

Dear Miles, it looks like there are some hidden secrets here.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I have always wondered why Security sorts unde Engineering and not under Command.

It's under Operations.

 

[kkt]

Mild-mannered Miles doing something horrible enough to get demoted seems unlikely. Maybe there's only a couple of dozen enlisted personnel in all of Starfleet and Starfleet just got around to designing a CPO's insignia in Hippocratic Oath.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I have always wondered why Security sorts unde Engineering and not under Command.

Which is still stupid because IRL Operations is if any part of Command (or at least an adjutant to it) not Engineering (with the exception of Armory).

I always thought that it was about 100-150 Starfleet personnel on the station.

There were probably at least 100-150 uniformed personnel on the station from the outset, but the intention and AFAICT on-screen depiction favoured far less Starfleet personnel.

But money isn't an issue in the Federation. Or is it?

Money is basically just a way of recognizing priviledges and we know that different ranks have different priviledges.

But you were a Lieutenant on the Enterprise, dear Miles!

The vast majority of the evidence suggests otherwise.

What!
Wasn't he demoted before ending up on DS9?

Given that he was promoted in role, it seems very likely that he was demoted in rank.

And all this brings us back to if Miles were demoted on the Enterprise and why?

In the first season of TNG he's actually an ensign with one pip.

But was not referred to as "Ensign" and this was specifically retcon'd by All Good Things which included specific dialogue referring to him as a "Chief".

Even disregarding this, he appears as a Crewman (no pip) in his next appearance, so this can be dismissed as a wardrobe error.

In season 2 of TNG he has two pips on his collar and is adressed by Riker as Lieutenant.

That was probably an error by Frakes as it wasn't in the script, and in any case as a single reference is overwritten by other mentions of him being a "Chief" or "Chief Petty Officer".

he wears the pips of Lieutenant until season 6 of TNG when he all of a sudden is wearing a single hollow pip whic obviously is the rank of a Warrant Officer!

Actually, it was the fifth season and the only thing that is "obvious" is that it designates one or more (because O'Brien continued to wear it on his dress uniform through at least one promotion) ranks between Crewman and Ensign.

In season 4 of DS9 he gets a new rank insignia, reminding of a Sergeant's insignia.

It's certainly not a buck sergeant's insignia.

It's based on a hybrid of the USN/USCG Senior Chief and Master Chief's insignia and appears to designate a Senior Chief (based on dialogue) which is equivalent to a Master Sergeant or Senior Master Sergeant depending on service.

So what did poor Miles do to be demoted?

Nothing, if anything compared to his rank on arrival at Deep Space Nine he was promoted.

O' BRIEN: l was doing some extra work on the deflector targeting arrays.
Commander, l heard you were aboard, but l...

TOM RIKER: l've nothing to say to you. l think you know why.

He doesn't, because that was Tom either trying to make the Chief go away before he broke his cover (or just being bigotted against transporter operators)

And why that new rank insignia in Hippocratic Oath. Was he demoted to Sergeant

No, see above.

It's under Operations.

Which is itself a retcon and a rather sketchy one, as IRL Engineering (aka "Maintenance and Repair" is usually it's own department and Operations is a subset of Command.

Starfleet just got around to designing a CPO's insignia in Hippocratic Oath.

They existed for at least two previous uniform variants, and the insignia for "non-commissioned and/or warrant officers" has existed since The Child when wardrobe mistakenly put that insignia on the teacher Miss Gladstone and put her lieutenant's insignia on O'Brien and then took over three years to fix it.

 

[kkt]

Too bad we didn't see a flashback of Worf's adoptive father in uniform as a noncom in Family.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Which is itself a retcon and a rather sketchy one, as IRL Engineering (aka "Maintenance and Repair" is usually it's own department and Operations is a subset of Command.

Sort of. Not sure when the color break down was firmly established. But any one in a red became “Operations” which made for some odd bedfellows which transferred to gold in TNG.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Sort of. Not sure when the color break down was firmly established. But any one in a red became “Operations” which made for some odd bedfellows which transferred to gold in TNG.

It's varied considered in show considerably over the years, which is why I ignore "on screen" (except to a degree the two "odd ones out", which are also two of the most strongly pro-enlisted versions) and look to the real world organisations that inspired that part of the system:

For simplicity, I will use the USCG and the RN, but the basic points also apply to the USN and most Commonwealth navies to an extent:

USCG:

Command: Commanding Officer, Executive Officer, Chief of the Boat (or equivalent).
Operations: Boatswain's Mate (Helmsman/Navigator), Maritime LE Specialist (Security), Gunner's Mate (Tactical), Operations Specialists (Communications & Sensors).
Admin & Science: Health Services Tech, Marine Science Tech, Musician, Public Affairs, Storekeeper, Culinary Specialist, Intelligence Specialist, Yeoman.
Engineering & Hull: Damage Control, Electrican's Mate, Electronics Tech, Machinery Tech, Information Systems Tech, Diver (EVA/Hull Repair). Aviation Techs would be folded into this department as well.

RN:
Command*: Commanding Officer, Executive Officer.
Operations*: Warfare Specialist (Tactical and Intelligence), Comms Info Systems Technician, Diver (EVA), Hydrographic and & Meteological Specialist (Stellar Cartography), Master-at-Arms/Regulators (Security), Seamanship (Helm and Navigation), Survey Recorder (Navigator).
Logistics: Writer (Yeoman), Supply Chain (Storekeeper), Catering Services (Culinary Specialist).
Medical: Medical, Nursing, Medical Services.
Engineering: Marine Engineering Technican (Engineering), Weapon Engineering (Armory), Air Engineering (Engineering).

* These also merge into one department known as "General Service".

 

[Lynx]

It's under Operations.

Might be, but I agree with the comment below.

Which is still stupid because IRL Operations is if any part of Command (or at least an adjutant to it) not Engineering (with the exception of Armory).

Money is basically just a way of recognizing priviledges and we know that different ranks have different priviledges.

That might be the truth. A promotion might give the promoded person better replicators, a better house or apartment on Earth and more pocket money on alien worlds or stations like DS9 where some sort of currency is used.

The vast majority of the evidence suggests otherwise.

Hmmmm....I'm not so sure about that.

Given that he was promoted in role, it seems very likely that he was demoted in rank.

And all this brings us back to if Miles were demoted on the Enterprise and why?

It actually looks like he was!

But was not referred to as "Ensign" and this was specifically retcon'd by All Good Things which included specific dialogue referring to him as a "Chief".

Even disregarding this, he appears as a Crewman (no pip) in his next appearance, so this can be dismissed as a wardrobe error.

Well, "wardrobe error" might be the truth since there have been a lot of such things in Star Trek.

In VOY, Tuvok was constantly changing from Lieutenant to Lieutenant Commander for a while.

However, I must admit that I always tries to come with some more appropriate Star Trek Universe explanation. In Tuvok's case it was all about his weekly Kal-Toh games with Janeway.

If janeway lost, she was furious and demoted Tuvok, if she won the next game, he got his old rank back. In the end he gave up and always let Janeway win, thus keeping his Lieutenant Commander rank.

Maybe Miles got the wrong uniform by mistake and Picard sent him to the brig for a day or so.

PICARD: Crewman! Why in the world are you wearing an Ensign's uniform! That is a severe violation of Starfleet rules and you should know that. But only because I'm so kind and this is your first mission on the ship, I will only give yo one day in the brig. Security! Take him away!

That was probably an error by Frakes as it wasn't in the script, and in any case as a single reference is overwritten by other mentions of him being a "Chief" or "Chief Petty Officer".

Will Riker never makes mistakes!
Not to mention that O'Brien was wearing a Lieutenant's uniform.

He was actually wearting a Lieutenant's uniform from the episode The Child which took place on Stardate 42073.1 (Wed, 27 Jan 2365 ) to the episode Realm Of Fear, Stardate 46041.1 (Thu, 16 Jan 2369), more than four years!

The next time he shows up is in DS9's Emissary Stardate 46379.1 (Mon, 19 May 2369) and is wearing a single black pip which indicates that he is a Warrant Officer.

Now that is a demotion if anything!

So what happened in thise dreadful days between 16 january 2369 and 19 may 2369? What horrible crime or violation of Starfleet rules did poor Miles commit? Or what secrets did he discover?

Actually, it was the fifth season and the only thing that is "obvious" is that it designates one or more (because O'Brien continued to wear it on his dress uniform through at least one promotion) ranks between Crewman and Ensign.

It's certainly not a buck sergeant's insignia.

It's based on a hybrid of the USN/USCG Senior Chief and Master Chief's insignia and appears to designate a Senior Chief (based on dialogue) which is equivalent to a Master Sergeant or Senior Master Sergeant depending on service.

It looks like a Sergeant's insignia.

Nothing, if anything compared to his rank on arrival at Deep Space Nine he was promoted.

I have my doubts since he was seen in a Lieutenant's uniform in TNG then he is not in some episodes after that and then he shows up on DS9 he is a Warrant Officer. That's what I call a demotion!

He doesn't, because that was Tom either trying to make the Chief go away before he broke his cover (or just being bigotted against transporter operators)

Or did Tom simply use what he had heard from his brother Will about a possible conflict or whatever between Will Riker and Miles O'Brien just to get rid of O'Brien from the Defiant because he knew that O'Brien would be too embarrased by bringing some dark secret up in front of Kira?

The mystery just gets more mysterious.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It looks like a Sergeant's insignia.

They’re chevrons. A common rank device for NCO and CPOs.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Not to mention that O'Brien was wearing a Lieutenant's uniform.

Not according to dialogue in several dozen episodes, which refer to him as a "Chief" or "Chief Petty Officer" not a Lieutenant (which was a single unscripted occasion) and a likely wardrobe error.

He was actually wearting a Lieutenant's uniform from the episode The Child which took place on Stardate 42073.1 (Wed, 27 Jan 2365 ) to the episode Realm Of Fear, Stardate 46041.1 (Thu, 16 Jan 2369), more than four years!

Was he?

The next time he shows up is in DS9's Emissary Stardate 46379.1 (Mon, 19 May 2369) and is wearing a single black pip which indicates that he is a Warrant Officer.

Could be, or it could just be a placeholder for a "subordinate officer" ranks, given that he continued to wear it on his dress uniform as a Senior Chief Specialist (which would be the equivalent of a warrant officer in the British sense, but not a US W-1)

Now that is a demotion if anything!

No, because he's going from at most a section leader to a Department Head, therefore if anything even if he was a Chief Petty Officer on the Enterprise, he should have been a Lieutenant by the time he was prompted to Senior Chief Specialist.

So what happened in thise dreadful days between 16 january 2369 and 19 may 2369? What horrible crime or violation of Starfleet rules did poor Miles commit? Or what secrets did he discover?

Nothing, because there was no demotion after or during his transfer as he had the same rank and a promotion in role on the station compared to the Enterprise.

It looks like a Sergeant's insignia.

Really?

Last time I checked a Sergeant's insignia has three chevrons and zero additional elements (rockers, stars, pips)...

Whereas O'Brien's insignia has three chevrons and two additional elements, which would put it as a Senior Chief Petty Officer (which closely matches his stated rank of Senior Chief Specialist).

 

[kkt]

Yes, the photo of Miles on the Memory Alpha article if you blow it up clearly has two additional dots to the right of the chevrons. They're smaller than the officers' pips, and not really a good design of insignia - you shouldn't have to get up to a foot from the man's collar in order to see what rank he has.

Clearly just inconsistent wardrobe choices. Though if you feel like you must give it an in-universe explanation you could say he was given an acting commission as lieutenant for a short time in order to be an acting section head or something and then decided he'd rather let it expire and revert to his permanent rank as an NCO.

Sisko was less of a by-the-book CO than Picard and was fine with O'Brien having just operational authority over the few starfleet engineers reporting to him.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yes, the photo of Miles on the Memory Alpha article if you blow it up clearly has two additional dots to the right of the chevrons. They're smaller than the officers' pips, and not really a good design of insignia - you shouldn't have to get up to a foot from the man's collar in order to see what rank he has.

Clearly just inconsistent wardrobe choices. Though if you feel like you must give it an in-universe explanation you could say he was given an acting commission as lieutenant for a short time in order to be an acting section head or something and then decided he'd rather let it expire and revert to his permanent rank as an NCO.

Sisko was less of a by-the-book CO than Picard and was fine with O'Brien having just operational authority over the few starfleet engineers reporting to him.

I did all sorts of back flips and contortions many many years ago for a website I created trying to make sense of O'Brien's pips in TNG. In the end I ignored the pips and stuck with the DS9 chevrons.

 

[The Wormhole]

In season 2 of TNG he has two pips on his collar and is adressed by Riker as Lieutenant.

he wears the pips of Lieutenant until season 6 of TNG

And yet, despite wearing Lieutenant's pips in Family, Sergei Rozhenko instantly recognizes O'Brien as a Chief Petty Officer.

 

[Citiprime]

O'Brien is also wearing (two) lieutenant pips on his dress uniform during his wedding in TNG's "Data's Day."

 

[Nerys Myk]

O'Brien is also wearing (two) lieutenant pips on his dress uniform during his wedding in TNG's "Data's Day."

Keiko: I thought I was marrying an officer!!!

 

[kkt]

And yet, despite wearing Lieutenant's pips in Family, Sergei Rozhenko instantly recognizes O'Brien as a Chief Petty Officer.

O'Brien wears the glazed look of someone who is responsible for making everything happen but has no authority to make the job possible.

 

[Tosk]

Keiko: I thought I was marrying an officer!!!

First Klinger, then O'Brien. She has a type.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

O'Brien is also wearing (two) lieutenant pips on his dress uniform during his wedding in TNG's "Data's Day."

The Watsonian counterpart to the Doylist (it's a wardrobe error) IMO is that in-universe either the pips are of a different colour or style -- explaining why Rozhenko was able to instantly identify O'Brien as a Chief Petty Officer rather than a Lieutenant -- and/or that he should have been wearing the silver commbadge otherwise exclusive to Acting Ensign Wesley Crusher.