Does having a non-officer in the "Chief of Operations" position make sense?

[Shamrock Holmes]

But things could change in 300 years or so.

I'm not talking about "300 years ago" I'm talking the other Department Heads on his ship and the hero ships that we see throughout the 60-odd years of the show.

Is Scotty ever referred as Chief Scott? is Yar... Worf... LaForge... Torres... or literally any Department Head who is confirmed to also be a commissioned officer?

No, or if they were I'd bet that it's a single abherrent example among hundreds or thousands of the more consistent option.

But couldn't "Chief" be regarded as a billet too?

No. Chief of Operations is the billet, "Chief" (short for Chief Petty Officer, Chief Master Sergeant or Chief Warrant Officer as applicable) is a rank.

In that case, the Wardrobe Officer on the Enterprise wasn't doing his job.

Nope, because in universe he is wearing the correct rank insignia or rank group insignia for his rank, because the dialogue remains consistent throughout.

But it's still visible.

See above.

And aren't mine suggestions about demotions and such a little more exciting?

YMMV, but I don't find dismissing objective facts that support a logical consistent scenario to resort to bashing and half-baked speculation that can't be confirmed or denied appealing.

 

[Lynx]

I'm not talking about "300 years ago" I'm talking the other Department Heads on his ship and the hero ships that we see throughout the 60-odd years of the show.

Is Scotty ever referred as Chief Scott? is Yar... Worf... LaForge... Torres... or literally any Department Head who is confirmed to also be a commissioned officer?

No, or if they were I'd bet that it's a single abherrent example among hundreds or thousands of the more consistent option.



No. Chief of Operations is the billet, "Chief" (short for Chief Petty Officer, Chief Master Sergeant or Chief Warrant Officer as applicable) is a rank.

I see your point, but it's still confusing with all his different insignia.

Nope, because in universe he is wearing the correct rank insignia or rank group insignia for his rank, because the dialogue remains consistent throughout.

I must quote a boss I had at a job I had many years ago who had a heated argument with a colleague of mine:

"You are right in your statements, absolutely right!
But you are also wrong!"

I totally agree with what you are writing about the dialogue and the in-universe scenario. But he did wear Lieutenan't insignia for years on the Enterprise.

YMMV, but I don't find dismissing objective facts that support a logical consistent scenario to resort to bashing and half-baked speculation that can't be confirmed or denied appealing.

Obviously I have run into a wall here when it comes to come up with a plausible explanation when it comes to O'Brien with a Lieutenant's insignia on the Enterprise and then with an insignia of a Warrant Officer on Deep Space Nine some months later. Too many details to consider. But I will try to find an acceptable solution.

Oh dear, much easier with explaining that the character Devor in TNGs Starship Mine was Tuvok's brother Devok or the Tom-Paris-Nick Locarno connection.

I just feel like screaming: There are two pips!

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I see your point, but it's still confusing with all his different insignia.

Which is why I prefer to ignore the out-of-universe confusion.

I totally agree with what you are writing about the dialogue and the in-universe scenario. But he did wear Lieutenan't insignia for years on the Enterprise.

Only out-of-universe.

In-universe he was immediately identifiable as a Chief Petty Officer.

Obviously I have run into a wall here when it comes to come up with a plausible explanation when it comes to O'Brien with a Lieutenant's insignia on the Enterprise and then with an insignia of a Warrant Officer on Deep Space Nine some months later. Too many details to consider. But I will try to find an acceptable solution.

Lieutenant's insignia and then Chief Petty Officer/NCO insignia... I'd even stretch to Chief Warrant Officer... not Warrant Officer.

 

[evilchumlee]

It's under Operations.

I don't think Security is actually "under" anything, Operations, Engineering and Security share the same divisional colors but are distinct departments. Starfleet Security is very much an organization of its own (although, it's unclear if shipboard security is attached to this, or if the organizations just share the same name).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I don't think Security is actually "under" anything, Operations, Engineering and Security share the same divisional colors but are distinct departments.

I'm not sure that it's entirely correct, given that the Second Officer is typically the head of one of the three departments and is senior to the others, regardless of rank. Though as I've noted before, while Operations (aka as Communications) and Security could be part of the same department, Engineering should really be its own thing.

Starfleet Security is very much an organization of its own (although, it's unclear if shipboard security is attached to this, or if the organizations just share the same name).

Starfleet Security is certainly it's own command or directorate separate from the "starship service"*, but it's still part of the overall Starfleet structure under Starfleet Command (cf the US Joint Chiefs), canonically led by the "Head of Starfleet Security", who may also be dual-hatted as the Starfleet Inspector-General (who would be in charge of Starfleet's internal regulatory and safety functions**), but I'm not convinced they're a separate organisation.

* In this respect it's more similar to US ground forces or the Royal Navy, rather than the USN which doesn't have a discrete chain-of-command for that function.

** Starfleet OSHC (potentially Operational Safety and Health Command) was one of the agencies involved in a suspicious death at Utopia Planitia per Eye of the Beholder.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think Security is actually "under" anything, Operations, Engineering and Security share the same divisional colors but are distinct departments. Starfleet Security is very much an organization of its own (although, it's unclear if shipboard security is attached to this, or if the organizations just share the same name).

Operations is the Division name, with Security and Engineering falling under it. To my mind "Ops" (Data & KIm) is part of Engineering but more on the software side. While Engineering proper (Scotty, Geordi Torres)is more hardware. Each has its own designated Officer In Charge.

As for Starfleet Security. In my limited experience as an Air Force Brat, there were two types of security. The APs who controlled access to Base, guarded things inside the base and provided law enforcement. And the Security Service, which my dad was part of. Their job was electronic surveillance of our enemies (the USSR and China in those days) So Intelligence gathering. Most of the Red Shirts we see on the Enterprise and elsewhere are of the AP type of security. Worf and Tuvok seemed to head both types of Security teams.

 

[fireproof78]

I always took it as "Ship Service Operations" Division, with Engineering, Security, Communications, Operations being separate departments.

 

[evilchumlee]

Operations is the Division name, with Security and Engineering falling under it. To my mind "Ops" (Data & KIm) is part of Engineering but more on the software side. While Engineering proper (Scotty, Geordi Torres)is more hardware. Each has its own designated Officer In Charge.

Operations seems to be more of the logistical side of things. Yeah they can do sensor scans and what not, but "Operations" generally seems to imply more of a general shipboard operations hub, allocating resources, etc.

I don't think it really makes sense for Operations, Engineering and Security to all under the same department and I don't necessarily think the division colors literally mean there are just three divisions of Starfleet and everything branches from them. For instance, we know Starfleet Security, which seems to be the Federation's version of the NSA, wears gold. That would certainly be a higher-tier organization than Operations... Admiral Pressman was stated as being Starfleet Intelligence, wearing red... are Conn officers under Starfleet Intelligence?

Rather, the color-coded departments are more just like, at a glance generalized indicators. Operations, Security, and Engineering seem to work as their own departments.

I think there are just quite a few departments under Starfleet Command. I suppose somewhere at the top they could converge into three "branches", although I really just see the divisional colors as just generalized indicators.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Operations is the Division name, with Security and Engineering falling under it. To my mind "Ops" (Data & KIm) is part of Engineering but more on the software side.

IRL, the top-level divide is between operators (who primarially operate ships systems including helm, navigation, communications and weapons targeting) security and intelligence personnel also fall in the second group)...

While Engineering proper (Scotty, Geordi Torres)is more hardware. Each has its own designated Officer In Charge.

... and technicians (woh primarially build and repair systems and structures) who sit under Engineering, and would include the Armory Officers of UESF).

As for Starfleet Security. In my limited experience as an Air Force Brat, there were two types of security.

Yup.

The APs who controlled access to Base, guarded things inside the base and provided law enforcement.

Generally known as Security, and controlled on a strategic level by Starfleet Security...

And the Security Service, which my dad was part of. Their job was electronic surveillance of our enemies (the USSR and China in those days) So Intelligence gathering.

... versus Starfleet Intelligence, possibly with some input from Starfleet Communications.

Most of the Red Shirts we see on the Enterprise and elsewhere are of the AP type of security. Worf and Tuvok seemed to head both types of Security teams.

There is limited evidence for the second type as a shipboard assignment, but the Intelligence Officer element of Worf's Strategic Operations Officer role certainly fits here.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Operations seems to be more of the logistical side of things.

In part, yes.

I don't think it really makes sense for Operations, Engineering and Security to all under the same department and I don't necessarily think the division colors literally mean there are just three divisions of Starfleet and everything branches from them.

I'd say rather that if there are only three Divisions then it doesn't make sense that Engineering would be in the same one as Communications, Logistics or Security.

For instance, we know Starfleet Security, which seems to be the Federation's version of the NSA, wears gold.

No... NSA does signals and electronic intelligence, that's either Starfleet Intelligence (which also covers at least some of the functions of the CIA) or Starfleet Communications.

Starfleet Security is the top-level criminal investigation department, so more in line with the FBI and Secret Service.

I think there are just quite a few departments under Starfleet Command.

IMO, Starfleet Command is either the equivalent of the Joint Chiefs (but with the operational authority that they lack), the Pentagon (ie Starfleet Headquarters) or both. At least partly based on the existence of a UESF "Command Council" which filled the former role back in the 22nd Century.

 

[diankra]

Keiko referred to Miles as being promoted in order to get on DS9.

An early book says Miles has become an ensign when transferred to DS9. Obviously dialogue later contradicts that.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

An early book says Miles has become an ensign when transferred to DS9. Obviously dialogue later contradicts that.

Indeed, that one fails on both dialogue and costume as he initially wears a single black pip (and is described as having been promoted from his previous "Chief" role), which might designate a variety of different options, but doesn't designate an Ensign, because they consistently wear a single gold or silver pip.

 

[diankra]

Indeed, that one fails on both dialogue and costume as he initially wears a single black pip (and is described as having been promoted from his previous "Chief" role), which might designate a variety of different options, but doesn't designate an Ensign, because they consistently wear a single gold or silver pip.

Though deadlines meant the manuscript was written before any episodes had been seen. Peter David has said he wrote the novelisation of Emissary seeing Odo as Clint Eastwood, and had to redraft a bit on hearing Rene Auberjoinois had been cast.

 

[evilchumlee]

I'd say rather that if there are only three Divisions then it doesn't make sense that Engineering would be in the same one as Communications, Logistics or Security.

That's fair.

Although if there are only three divisions, with one of them being essentially entire devoted to command/control/administration, an overarching and monolithic "Operations" does make some sense for all of those things to be in there (although, I would probably say the logistics makes more sense in the command/admin division).

I've also kind of pondered if the divisions aren't quite always divided up that way, it's just how they tend to arranged on ships/stations. Starfleet *IS* larger than three departments, even if we lump Engineer, Operations and Security into one... you still have "Starfleet Security", which as we established probably isn't actually involved in shipboard tactical/security, there's Starfleet Intelligence, which seems to be its own thing, and there are quite a few other departments/divisions we hear of.

No... NSA does signals and electronic intelligence, that's either Starfleet Intelligence (which also covers at least some of the functions of the CIA) or Starfleet Communications.

Starfleet Security is the top-level criminal investigation department, so more in line with the FBI and Secret Service.

I got my departments mixed up there. Yes, Starfleet Security is definitely a heaping helping of FBI, but I think there's alot of say, Homeland Security in there as well.

Starfleet Security is also has a component of being an intelligence agency, but it seems more domestic focused.

IMO, Starfleet Command is either the equivalent of the Joint Chiefs (but with the operational authority that they lack), the Pentagon (ie Starfleet Headquarters) or both. At least partly based on the existence of a UESF "Command Council" which filled the former role back in the 22nd Century.

That is probably true, more so the "both" part.

I think that "Starfleet Command" existed in some form in the 22nd century, just the "Command Council" was probably more directly akin to the Joint Chiefs, whereas "Starfleet Command" in broader terms is a larger entity with more departments in and of itself.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Although if there are only three divisions, with one of them being essentially entire devoted to command/control/administration, an overarching and monolithic "Operations" does make some sense for all of those things to be in there (although, I would probably say the logistics makes more sense in the command/admin division).

In theory, yes.

Security (particularly if you that it grew out of naval infantry) also makes sense there as well, IMO.

I've also kind of pondered if the divisions aren't quite always divided up that way, it's just how they tend to arranged on ships/stations. Starfleet *IS* larger than three departments, even if we lump Engineer, Operations and Security into one... you still have "Starfleet Security", which as we established probably isn't actually involved in shipboard tactical/security, there's Starfleet Intelligence, which seems to be its own thing, and there are quite a few other departments/divisions we hear of.

Starfleet Security seems to concentrate on internal security and safety, including Federation staff and dependents, whereas Starfleet Intelligence seems to be more externally focused (akin to the CIA or MI6)

I got my departments mixed up there. Yes, Starfleet Security is definitely a heaping helping of FBI, but I think there's alot of say, Homeland Security in there as well.

The original plan was for the FBI to transfer over to Homeland, but Justice wouldn't give it up, so the Secret Service and organic DHS assets ended up partly duplicating their functions.

Starfleet Security is also has a component of being an intelligence agency, but it seems more domestic focused.

Agreed.

I think that "Starfleet Command" existed in some form in the 22nd century, just the "Command Council" was probably more directly akin to the Joint Chiefs,

I think it was more the headquarters back then, due to the Command Council having "external observers" on it.

whereas "Starfleet Command" in broader terms is a larger entity with more departments in and of itself.

That's "(United Earth) Starfleet" or possibly "United Earth Space Probe Agency" (of which "Starfleet Command" is a directorate.

 

[evilchumlee]

That's "(United Earth) Starfleet" or possibly "United Earth Space Probe Agency" (of which "Starfleet Command" is a directorate.

That brings up an interesting point on the 22nd century "Command Council"... we do know that Starfleet is at least on paper a department of the United Earth Space Probe Agency (or at the very least, in assocation with UESPA, although the graphic reading "Starfleet Command - United Earth Space Probe Agency" would imply to me that UESPA is the parent organization.)

We ALSO know Starfleet doesn't have a monopoly on Earth space travel... the Earth Cargo Service is the obvious one, but we know there are other entities out there sending out colony ships and what not, and we ALSO know that national militaries still exist (Reed's parents were disappointed he didn't join the Royal Navy)...

So perhaps the "Command Council" is actually not Starfleet Command, rather a United Earth governmental board of the various parties involved with space.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That brings up an interesting point on the 22nd century "Command Council"... we do know that Starfleet is at least on paper a department of the United Earth Space Probe Agency (or at the very least, in assocation with UESPA, although the graphic reading "Starfleet Command - United Earth Space Probe Agency" would imply to me that UESPA is the parent organization.)

My reading was that UESPA is the "parent organisation".

We ALSO know Starfleet doesn't have a monopoly on Earth space travel... the Earth Cargo Service is the obvious one, but we know there are other entities out there sending out colony ships and what not, and we ALSO know that national militaries still exist (Reed's parents were disappointed he didn't join the Royal Navy)...

Agreed, though the UE seems to be the overall manager of most if not all manned space operations.

So perhaps the "Command Council" is actually not Starfleet Command, rather a United Earth governmental board of the various parties involved with space.

They quite specifically have command authority over NX-01 and therefore implicitly the rest of UE Starfleet assets, however this doesn't necessarily mean that they are limited to those assets. For instance, it's reasonable to assume that they are at least responsible for the regulations governing the activity of ECS registered freighters even if they don't have direct authority over said semi-autonomous skippers.

 

[Uxi]

Not really. They should have had an engineering officer, perhaps a green one with O'Brien under him. By mid series, his experienced combined with better training should have shown him O'Brien's superior and by the end, he should be way beyond. Of course, most or all Trek series would have been better served by a stead rotation of both officer and enlisted as some go to the other assignments, some get promoted and some retire, some die, and some decide to go into civilian life.

 

[Lynx]

Not really. They should have had an engineering officer, perhaps a green one with O'Brien under him. By mid series, his experienced combined with better training should have shown him O'Brien's superior and by the end, he should be way beyond. Of course, most or all Trek series would have been better served by a stead rotation of both officer and enlisted as some go to the other assignments, some get promoted and some retire, some die, and some decide to go into civilian life.

I have to disagree here.

Having a constant rotation of main characters wouldn't only be confusing but devastating to a series as such.

People who watch a series find their favorites. If they are constantly changing, people lose interest and stop watching the series.

For me, good characters who I like and the chemistry between them is very important.

There are many series which I have stopped watching when some good character whoI like has left and been replaced with a character i don't like, NCIS New Orleans and NCIS the most recent examples.

Not to mention that I have good experiences of places whereI work where we have had or has a good team where we are good friends and can cooperate and bad experiences of places where I have worked where there have been constant changes.

Maybe we can assume that Starfleet has realized that there is better to have a good team with good chemistry in a modern society than a team with constant changing of members which they had back in the "dark ages" of the 21st century?

 

[kkt]

I have to disagree. I agree with the dramatic desirability of having mostly the same characters through the series. However, in-universe some people would be leaving all the time and new people need to come in and get trained to replace them. People may sign up for a 3 or 4 year active service and then be in the reserves, so that would mean about 1/4 of the crew are new each year. (Besides, some may be in Security and have the bad luck to be assigned to TOS Enterprise...)

There was an Internal Affairs department on DS9. When Sloan first appeared, that was how he introduced himself. Sloan was lying, but if there was really no such thing as Internal Affairs, Sisko and the other regular Starfleet officers would have told him to go pound sand. Perhaps it's a part of Security, not part of a ship or station's detachment but sent out from major bases when the need arises.