Raffi.What would Seven do on Excelsior?
Does anyone else dislike Raffi?
- Thread starter ED-209
- Start date
Couldn't help itI was REALLY trying not to go there!
On Voyager she was a jack of all trades going from engineering to Astrometrics or was it stellacartography; as you mentioned about her skills in particular of what she's done on PICARD. Seven never came off as a "team player" and could go rogue when she felt like it, she never appeared to be Starfleet material although she would be valuable if she act accordingly. She could start out as "Chief of Security" with some special measures to dabble with operations. With the passage of time happening with PICARD, Raffi could be promoted to Captain and may have Seven as First Officer or a special advisor to the Captain. Being an advisor she could still have an honorable Starfleet rank, Commander or Lt. Commander or possibly a Warrant Officer, and still be able to be flexible in doing... what Seven normally does... solve problems.What would Seven do on Excelsior?
Making Seven Captain??? I don't know if that's a good idea but this show is geared on what is considered "COOL" for 60 year olds since the writing staff are pushing that age range. She should be Captain because she's a veteran on Star Trek and is beloved even if her character doesn't fit the bill, but the "KEWL FACTOR" stands out in these shows lets see how far they can wreck that train.
I would definitely agree that "Captain Seven of Nine" would be a really big (and unwelcome) stretch...no matter how much I appreciate the character and the talents of Jeri Ryan as an actress.
She didn't want to be there. Janeway yanked her out of the Collective.
Janeway created the Astrometrics lab for the express purpose of keeping Seven out of trouble. Do you REALLY think she'd want to go back to a job she hated?
Raffi isn't interested in being Captain. She's championing Seven.
You would have Starfleet ignore Seven's extensive career in favor of someone who checks all the bureaucratic boxes.
She's not the same person she was twenty-five years ago. You would pretend the past twenty years never happened.
It would be a waste of skill.
Last edited:
No, which was why I proposed Chief of Security for starters, and later some special designation so she can do whatever she pleases.
This is a Raffi thread, my focus is on the character this thread is about. I don't give a shit about Seven of Nine, but Raffi is already an established Starfleet officer (COMMANDER); she should be of higher stature and rank than Seven despite the fan engorge wish fulfillments.
Yeah she's not the same person, she's a lot worse, killing and casting revenge in the first season and she showing her contempt of Starfleet. Season 2 there was nothing I saw which would make me think Seven is an appropriate person to be Captain of a Federation vessel... unless the last several minutes of the season finale was what you would consider part of her "extensive career". What do you mean by extensive career??? Extensive career as a Starfleet officer??? What did I miss beside her not making the grade at Starfleet and joining the Fenris Rangers - guns blazing across the galaxy?You would have Starfleet ignore Seven's extensive career in favor of someone who checks all the bureaucratic boxes.
She's not the same person she was twenty-five years ago. You would pretend the past twenty years never happened.
Her extensive military career (Eighteen years in combat -- including time spent commanding troops, four years aboard Voyager, and another twenty years as a Fenris Ranger).
You're operating out of a 1960's playbook. Marking time doesn't necessarily pay dividends anymore (a lot of loyal "company people" were shown the door in 2008).
Even in-universe, Riker and Troi looked down upon then-science-officer Picard for not taking risks ("Tapestry").
Acting Ensigns like Wesley Crusher could be bridge officers.
She had to do SOMETHING with her life. A career with the then-anti-Borg Starfleet didn't look too promising at the time.
What was Seven supposed to do? Wait around for Janeway and HOPE something would happen?
Last edited:
I'm not sure her years as a rogue operative would be a selling point for Starfleet.
What about Rios?
A man who spent 10+ years surrounding himself with holographic versions of himself is now to be trusted with a flesh-and-blood crew?
I can't sit by and watch Seven being trashed while Rios gets a pass for behavior that's disturbing in its own right.
Last edited:
I mean, I don't think either look credible in Starfleet.
Rios at least had got to being a first officer before his wilderness nonsense.
I don't think Seven being a member of the Borg Collective for eighteen years counts as valid experience. Or the Fenris Rangers, for that matter. Starfleet has a military structure in which many skills (including discipline and protocol, as well as technical excellence) must be cultivated and trained in order to progress.
It's like saying, "that guy over there has been a fantastic businessman for twenty years; negotiated deals, planned tactically, etc. Shall we just make him a general and put him in charge of the army?"
Rios at least had got to being a first officer before his wilderness nonsense.
I don't think Seven being a member of the Borg Collective for eighteen years counts as valid experience. Or the Fenris Rangers, for that matter. Starfleet has a military structure in which many skills (including discipline and protocol, as well as technical excellence) must be cultivated and trained in order to progress.
It's like saying, "that guy over there has been a fantastic businessman for twenty years; negotiated deals, planned tactically, etc. Shall we just make him a general and put him in charge of the army?"
Seven has some zinging references though, no?
She'd be able to put Picard and Janeway as referees on her application (two respected Admirals no less) who could grease the wheels for her.
After all, we do know Starfleet is nepotistic.
She'd be able to put Picard and Janeway as referees on her application (two respected Admirals no less) who could grease the wheels for her.
After all, we do know Starfleet is nepotistic.
Last edited:
His years as a Starfleet officer would be a selling point for Starfleet.
I imagine he'd have a certain amount of leverage as well, having witnessed one of Starfleet's less than fine moments when they ordered his Captain to murder the original Soji-Bot.
Looking over some of the Captain Seven talk, I did like the moment when Picard made Seven a captain. I thought it was a cool moment. But I don't know how much sense it really made, and if Starfleet Command will agree with Picard's decision. Further, I don't think Picard can unilaterally allow the Borg to join the Federation, which is what was implied IMO. As respected and legendary as he is, he's just the head of Starfleet Academy, and further, I can't imagine that all the hard feelings over his resignation have eased at Starfleet Command either. Where is Admiral Clancy and how would she feel about these decisions?
What makes for great or emotional television moments doesn't always make for sensible decisions storywise. I have no problem with Picard bringing Seven into Starfleet but making her a captain is a stretch. But that's the kind of J.J. Abrams Star Trek 2009 story writing that leapfrogs Kirk from the Academy to eventually captain of the Enterprise in just one movie. New Trek often choses emotion over logic and haven't done a great job at finding ways to combine the two to really make for powerful, lasting television moments.
I do think Raffi is a more logical choice to be promoted over Seven. She's had years in Starfleet, and despite her own troubles, she was proven right about the conspiracy in Season 1. But Raffi is not the iconic character Seven is, and Captain Raffi Musiker doesn't sound as cool as Captain Seven of Nine, and I have little doubt the suits and creatives would think that would be as much of a draw as Captain Seven. If they do keep Seven as captain, I do hope she takes on the name Annika Hansen. I would like her to keep connecting to her humanity.
What makes for great or emotional television moments doesn't always make for sensible decisions storywise. I have no problem with Picard bringing Seven into Starfleet but making her a captain is a stretch. But that's the kind of J.J. Abrams Star Trek 2009 story writing that leapfrogs Kirk from the Academy to eventually captain of the Enterprise in just one movie. New Trek often choses emotion over logic and haven't done a great job at finding ways to combine the two to really make for powerful, lasting television moments.
I do think Raffi is a more logical choice to be promoted over Seven. She's had years in Starfleet, and despite her own troubles, she was proven right about the conspiracy in Season 1. But Raffi is not the iconic character Seven is, and Captain Raffi Musiker doesn't sound as cool as Captain Seven of Nine, and I have little doubt the suits and creatives would think that would be as much of a draw as Captain Seven. If they do keep Seven as captain, I do hope she takes on the name Annika Hansen. I would like her to keep connecting to her humanity.
Last edited:
Key thing here mate is that Seven getting the captain's chair was due to it being a Borg specific manner, requiring coordination with the Queen, the Borg tech in the Stargazer and some precision flying and so he considered her the most suited (as a specialist in the field) to oversee the op so it was only a temporary command due to the needs of the moment. I would be pretty happy to say he definitely has that authority and that post crisis command would revert to the XO or highest ranked officer on the Stargazer.
I think also that Trek has shown us that captains and above have enough discretion to agree treaties and alliances on a incident by incident basis and to effectively sponsor parties to join the Fed and so that will be all that was agreed there - the Borg Collaborative are given protection by, and promise to not do harm to, the Fed under a temporary agreement until a full set of terms can be hammered out.
Seven didn't have to be made captain for Picard to give her that authority. While I do get that in a pinch Picard can make that decision, I also suspect that the writers will just leave it as is instead of having to explain why Seven was demoted; absent that, they could have her rejecting it, but since they had already established she applied to Starfleet in a prior episode, I suspect that she will still be a starship captain next season.
While high ranking Starfleet officers do have a lot of leeway, admitting the Borg, a mortal enemy, into the Federation goes way above that. I recall how Nechayev chewed out Picard for failing to infect Hugh and thereby the rest of the Borg Collective, or how Starfleet Command iced Picard out at the beginning of First Contact. And while those episodes are decades in the past for ST: Picard, the bias the xBs and Seven have experienced doesn't seem like the Federation, or Starfleet, have been all that welcoming. To me, this is a writing issue. Instead of asking for admission into the Federation, the Jurati Borg Queen should've asked, or been offered by Picard, a momentary alliance. Admission evokes a different, longer, and more lasting process. There have been quite a few Trek episodes about admitting planets into the Federation and that's an onerous process. We didn't even see Bajor admitted throughout the whole run of DS9.
Some might consider my arguments mere semantics, but words do matter.
They are fair points but I would argue re: Seven that it is because she has to give commands to the other ships in the fleet too and there must be some sort of computery shit that requires a captain (full or field commish like she got).
No need to demote either as it is clearly a temporary field commission which would presumably revert at the end of the mission.
Agree in principal but with the caveat that due to the being Jurborgi and not OG Queen then it is clearly not the "same" mortal enemy so would be a touch more leeway.
I heard it as asking for admission and step 1 being a temporary alliance and basic rights and protections to serve the purpose of the mission until such a time as the pen pushers sorted out the fine points.
Bajor was onerous due to the religious elements being against it and it's history of being caste based amongst other things, right? Wasn't it that they had just got out of Cardi oppression and didn't want another "foreign power" dictating to them?
We are absolutely splitting hairs over this like.
We are splitting hairs here. I do think this goes down mostly to the writing not being clear enough IMO. I don't discount your arguments, which are well-laid out, however I do take some issue with some of them.
Regarding Bajor, yes, you got the gist of it far as I'm concerned. If we consider Bajor's admission was onerous due to religious strife and its war-torn history, what are we to make of the Borg's offer of admission? They tried twice to take out the Federation ("The Best of Both Worlds" and "First Contact").
Regarding Captain Seven, what you lay out makes sense, but we'll see if the writers actually do that. I think now she's in the chair they are going to keep her there. Which I'm not mad about because I like Seven, but still, I wish they had just gotten her into the chair in a different way. There was little that she did that Picard himself couldn't have done. I get that Sir Patrick is elderly, but it seems at times like the writers/creatives really like to sideline him too much. He'll give a great pep talk and then shuffle off to the side way too often.
Aye, think our main difference is you are thinking of it maybe more how you expect the writers to treat it (so arguably the "expected reality" of it) and I'm coming at it purely from how I saw it and would do it (which we seem to agree is the right approach).
No dramas and all good man
Similar threads
