Japanese married to Irish. Their breakfast showed that there was enough material for culture clashes.
Does anyone else dislike Keiko O'brien?
- Thread starter Gul Bones
- Start date
Don't even get me started.
Oh, but did she really save Julian's life and O'Brien's, or was it a super complex plot by Section 31 to replace her with a super high tech cyborg who would secretly communicate the information to Sisko because 31 knew all along where Julian was because they were planning to recruit him because they wanted to give him the cure to the Founder-genocide virus?
My God. It all makes sense now!!
Sheesh. Are you really so troubled by a prior discussion, sir, that you would say something so totally irrelevant, here?
I recently had DS9's season one DVDs. Years ago, I thought nothing of her teaching methods. Now that I'm a teacher, I found her approach awful. She did not consider the cultural differences and should have known better than ignoring the prophets. It was already established that they had been sending orbs to Bajor. She shouldn't have dismissed the Bajor religion since there is a relationship between the "wormhole aliens" and the inhabitants of Bajor.
Indeed, Kira called out Keiko's hypocrisy early on--the latter's clear rejection of Bajoran beliefs ("But our studies have shown...") is anything but "open-minded to all philosophies," or whatever words Keiko used to that effect.
And of course, her clear bias rubbed off on Jake (Changing today's subject to a lecture on Gallileo and the Inquisition? Really, Keiko?), to the point that Ben had to do some damage control.
And of course, her clear bias rubbed off on Jake (Changing today's subject to a lecture on Gallileo and the Inquisition? Really, Keiko?), to the point that Ben had to do some damage control.
She was totally not cut out to be a military wife, which is essentially what O'Brien was, a solider. I never rooted for infidelity more than when O'Brien and Kira had their little flirtation going. 
Rush Limborg said:
For someone who is apparently so insistent on having certain characters be completely consistent and infallible to suddenly begin displaying a certain degree of nuance in interpretation in order to place Keiko firmly into the category of 'bitch' is a bit... well, rich. The urge to wax sarcastic is rather strong in such a case.
Keiko may have complained about various aspects of Miles' posting, which is understandable. And she may have been inflexible and stubborn in arguing with her husband (characteristic of a number of relationships I've been in, actually). But at the end of the day, Keiko being loyal to her husband was not the exception rather than the rule. When her husband was held by the Cardassians, she turned her stubbornness straight on the presiding Cardassian judge. She comes off as a supportive and caring wife in a number of episodes - but it's not a side we generally see, since as far as story is concerned the times we see Keiko are generally when there is some conflict between her and O'Brien.
I dare anyone, man or woman, not to come off as a total jackass when the overwhelming majority of times we see them are when they are arguing with their SO.
She wasn't in Starfleet on DS9. She was a civilian botanist. That was part of the source of her arguments with the Chief. He had a challenging, important job that consumed a lot of his life and she was sort of left behind. That could put a strain on any relationship.
First, you will notice how I have never used the "b-word" in reference to Keiko.
Second, none of the qualities I pointed out ever contradicted the notion that she legitimately loved Miles, or was loyal to him (in her own way). That was not--nor was it ever--the issue.
The problem with Keiko is...she failed to treat him with the kind of respect she seemed to feel she was entitled to. She may have loved him, but she failed to respect him. That is not a contradiction--it is a tragic mixing of premises.
Her loyalty was not what I was referring to as an "exception"/"rule".
I am afraid I must express my disagreements with the dislike for Keiko. I blame the writing for her character appearing too mean. First, no one knew what they were getting into when they accepted the Deep Space Nine assignment, that was the point of the pilot. Second, no one knows what they are getting into when they get married or commit themselves to a long term relationship. Finally, Keiko tried other things, it didn't work. In the episode "House of Quark" Bashir pointed out to O'Brien that Keiko will only be happy if she returns to her profession. His best guy pal and station CMO says that. I am not saying she is perfect, but I admire her just the same.
Even when we first saw Keiko, she and Miles were getting married and she waited almost till the last minute to call it off.
...because it would make her happy...
And then like a true Bi-polar champion, she eventually perks up and tells everyone to put back on their uniforms, it's back on!!
Great way to start things off, lol.
And here is a typical day with Keiko nagging Miles to do some chore as usual;
And to show just how sadistic, how mean, how cruel this woman actually is, she managed to knick her daughter's Molly's hair really hard (she said, OW!) while she was combing it, just for the hell of it.
....oh wait..she was possessed by something....nevermind..
...because it would make her happy...
And then like a true Bi-polar champion, she eventually perks up and tells everyone to put back on their uniforms, it's back on!!
Great way to start things off, lol.
And here is a typical day with Keiko nagging Miles to do some chore as usual;
And to show just how sadistic, how mean, how cruel this woman actually is, she managed to knick her daughter's Molly's hair really hard (she said, OW!) while she was combing it, just for the hell of it.
....oh wait..she was possessed by something....nevermind..
Nightdiamond said:
Oh, come off it. Seriously.
Speaking as a married man who did his homework first, pre-wedding jitters / depression are pretty much ubiquitous, and it's not too uncommon among men, either. My wife didn't quite pull a Keiko, but she came damn close a couple of times; and normally 90% of the time she's on a pretty even keel.
I'm just watching DS9 for the first time, and I think the way Keiko was handled on the show is one of its poorest aspects.
If she is the wife of a regular, why isn't she also a regular? Why is botany so unneeded on a space station? She couldn't work in a food producing garden or open a plant shop in the Promenade? Buy, sell, and trade food and ornamental plants between quadrants? Regularly travel to Bajor to work with new food supply for them or go the gamma quadrant for new botanicals? What about the usual science fiction cliche but possible spins on alien and plant life going awry?
It seems like there was plenty of opportunity for Keiko to be a real fully embodied character on the show beyond being a wife and mother. She seems bitchy or that these are her only basic roles in life because we only see her sporadically in these elements as needed. We never get a chance to see the real character, unlike what seemed to have been done in less time on TNG. When we do see her, it is bitch and drama issues and pain time for O'Brien, simply because it is almost as if they have to justify a dramatic need for Keiko to be there. But my goodness, isn't there a need for husband's wife to always be there?
It just seems like the writers were stuck with her and would rather not have her there. And therein that leads to another problem, trying to strengthen Bashir via O'Brien when he should also have been further established on his own merits. You have too many underdeveloped people to start DS9, and yeah the bitchy and ho hum can certainly make you tune out. I don't know if I like Keiko or not, simply because it is as if the writers have already made that decision for me.
In some ways, I even feel Jadzia Dax is the same. Could she have been a recurring character only showing up when Trill interests were needed? When Sisko has a dilemma and needs a chat with the old man? Again, I think they tried to strengthen that character by marrying her to Worf, and it really kind of damaged Worf. Early on, Dax doesn't have much to do beyond being a talking head at the science station or later making jokes while piloting the Defiant. Otherwise, her spotlight episodes are mostly Trill centric. Are we really judging a main character solely by her race and identifying her character by the complex designs of her species? Hello. I know she is a fan favorite, but does anyone else find the treatment of Dax just as iffy as the need to bitch once a year treatment of Keiko?
This show bugs the heck out of me in the way the regulars and recurring players are developed in such disproportion. I mean, doesn't Garak appear in more episodes than Jake? I feel like Sisko, Kira, Odo, O'Brien, and Quark should have been in the opening credits with everyone else listed thereafter if they are in the episode, like in the old days. Or maybe just list everybody with Starring, Co-Starring, Also Starring, with one and last special. Then the character toss around wouldn't seem so out of whack.
Anyhoo must read up and catch up with the rest of the topics now.
If she is the wife of a regular, why isn't she also a regular? Why is botany so unneeded on a space station? She couldn't work in a food producing garden or open a plant shop in the Promenade? Buy, sell, and trade food and ornamental plants between quadrants? Regularly travel to Bajor to work with new food supply for them or go the gamma quadrant for new botanicals? What about the usual science fiction cliche but possible spins on alien and plant life going awry?
It seems like there was plenty of opportunity for Keiko to be a real fully embodied character on the show beyond being a wife and mother. She seems bitchy or that these are her only basic roles in life because we only see her sporadically in these elements as needed. We never get a chance to see the real character, unlike what seemed to have been done in less time on TNG. When we do see her, it is bitch and drama issues and pain time for O'Brien, simply because it is almost as if they have to justify a dramatic need for Keiko to be there. But my goodness, isn't there a need for husband's wife to always be there?
It just seems like the writers were stuck with her and would rather not have her there. And therein that leads to another problem, trying to strengthen Bashir via O'Brien when he should also have been further established on his own merits. You have too many underdeveloped people to start DS9, and yeah the bitchy and ho hum can certainly make you tune out. I don't know if I like Keiko or not, simply because it is as if the writers have already made that decision for me.
In some ways, I even feel Jadzia Dax is the same. Could she have been a recurring character only showing up when Trill interests were needed? When Sisko has a dilemma and needs a chat with the old man? Again, I think they tried to strengthen that character by marrying her to Worf, and it really kind of damaged Worf. Early on, Dax doesn't have much to do beyond being a talking head at the science station or later making jokes while piloting the Defiant. Otherwise, her spotlight episodes are mostly Trill centric. Are we really judging a main character solely by her race and identifying her character by the complex designs of her species? Hello. I know she is a fan favorite, but does anyone else find the treatment of Dax just as iffy as the need to bitch once a year treatment of Keiko?
This show bugs the heck out of me in the way the regulars and recurring players are developed in such disproportion. I mean, doesn't Garak appear in more episodes than Jake? I feel like Sisko, Kira, Odo, O'Brien, and Quark should have been in the opening credits with everyone else listed thereafter if they are in the episode, like in the old days. Or maybe just list everybody with Starring, Co-Starring, Also Starring, with one and last special. Then the character toss around wouldn't seem so out of whack.
Anyhoo must read up and catch up with the rest of the topics now.
KB24 said:
To be fair to the creators and writers of DS9, they did have Keiko doing these things, but I take your point - it is almost always offscreen. And it's a job that should be much more important than is made out to be on DS9. I realise that comparing SFnal television like DS9 with hard SFnal novels is ridiculously unfair, but to use an example from the Miles Vorkosigan saga, hydroponics is considered a vital system on space stations, both for oxygen and as a primary component of the station's economics: in Falling Free, IIRC, the quaddie Silver (one of the main characters and one of the ringleaders of the bloodless quaddie revolt against their megacorporate overlords) is primarily a hydroponics worker.
KB24 said:
I'm in partial agreement with you here. Until the last season, anyhow - I think, to their credit, they did a good deal more with Ezri than they did with Jadzia Dax.
That said, I think the Dax/Worf arc (even if it made the both of them kind of annoying) does make a certain amount of sense, given Curzon's and Jadzia's interest in affaires Klingon. Actually, IIRC, it was kind of accidental, from the writers' point of view, and the accidental arcs are often better than the ones which are deliberately contrived.
I just don't see why they couldn't have made her nice on occasion. She truly acts like she hates the chief, hates DS9, hates Starfleet, and couldn't care less about anything but plants and/or teaching Jake. Except, we don't really know if she likes teaching, because she really doesn't say she does or not, it's usually the chief heresaying it.
