Doctor Who on the wane

[RoJoHen]

Yet another lame excuse for RTD fanboys to whine and insult fans of the newer Who...

I really wish you guys would just stop watching if you don't like the show.

There's a big difference between disliking the show and disliking the direction one of the best writers Doctor Who has ever had is taking the show. If Michael Bay had taken over Doctor Who I would stop watching, but the annoying thing about Moffat's run is that it should be the golden age of Doctor Who. It's like if someone went back in time and changed history so that Einstein was a high school dropout turned porn star. You know the guy has the potential to change the world, but he's squandering it.

I have to agree with this. I loved the RTD/Tennant era, and I absolutely love Matt Smith as the Doctor...but I find Moffat's run of the series to be disappointing. The worst part is that I know he can do better. Some of the stories that he has written have been absolutely fantastic. I love Amy and Rory, and I love the idea of River's story. I just feel like it could be told so much better. It honestly feels like Moffat only writes one draft of his scripts and then doesn't bother going back to edit them and see if they make sense.

 

[Deckerd]

Yet another lame excuse for RTD fanboys to whine and insult fans of the newer Who...

I really wish you guys would just stop watching if you don't like the show.

I have to agree with Trubinator. Just throw out your DVDs and books and go watch Star Trek or something.

There is nothing to show that Doctor Who is "on the wane". But, as someone said earlier, don't let facts get in your way.

Seriously, guys, how many of you know Bob? I heard a huge chain being yanked so I responded in kind.

 

[davejames]

Well I think people were probably expecting way too much to begin with-- as if would really be possible for every episode under Moffat to be a Blink or Silence in the Library.

When you've got a hectic schedule and other writers to have to work with, it's only natural that the quality is going to waver a bit throughout the season. Personally I think his batting average has been pretty solid so far.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Yet another lame excuse for RTD fanboys to whine and insult fans of the newer Who...

I really wish you guys would just stop watching if you don't like the show.

There's a big difference between disliking the show and disliking the direction one of the best writers Doctor Who has ever had is taking the show. If Michael Bay had taken over Doctor Who I would stop watching, but the annoying thing about Moffat's run is that it should be the golden age of Doctor Who. It's like if someone went back in time and changed history so that Einstein was a high school dropout turned porn star. You know the guy has the potential to change the world, but he's squandering it.

I have to agree with this. I loved the RTD/Tennant era, and I absolutely love Matt Smith as the Doctor...but I find Moffat's run of the series to be disappointing. The worst part is that I know he can do better. Some of the stories that he has written have been absolutely fantastic. I love Amy and Rory, and I love the idea of River's story. I just feel like it could be told so much better. It honestly feels like Moffat only writes one draft of his scripts and then doesn't bother going back to edit them and see if they make sense.

I, too, have to agree. RTD's might not have been perfect, but at least he took care of his characters and their emotions (without going emo, I might add) and tried to avoid major plot holes.

Like, why did the Weeping Angels not move when Amy was blind? Because they are in control of this whole "standing still" thing? But then, why did they stay still at the end of "Blink", when they were facing each other? They are Moffat's own brilliant creation, and he couldn't even follow his own rules.

And what's with that finale? Why did the Doctor and River actually have to get married? Why couldn't they just go and touch each other? And why, oh why, did River's parents have to agree with the wedding before it could take place? What is this, the 19th century?!

You're right, RoJoHen, it does feel like Moffat's writing one draft and doesn't go over it again. And it's such a shame, because he used to be the best DW writer aside from RTD himself during the first four series' of NuWho.

I won't stop watching. Even if it hurts, because DW is actually my favorite show around, not just because there's so much goodness in past episodes, but because the concept is simply the most brilliant around. It really is, you can do anything, go anywhere, anywhen, meet anybody, and should you happen to not like this episode, the next one does something completely different.For all intents and purposes this should be the best show ever. Which is why I have to watch, even if it's currently not the best show ever.

 

[Zeppster]

I think a lot of people are just finding reason to not like this Doctor simply because Matt Smith probably isn't as good a doctor as Tennant or Ecclestian. Which there's nothing wrong with that. But if you look at some of the overall series writing like the relationship between the Doctor and his 3 main companions it's been amazing. Much better than the Tennant/Ecclestian era, that's really been the main strength of the series. Now overall the episodes in those eras were probably better. But there were also some bad episodes in those eras too. I don't think anyone really wants to acknowledge the entire Slitheen story in series 1

 

[Admiral_Young]

The thing is I'm pretty sure people were just as critical with RTD and Tennant as they've been with Moffat and Smith. It just seems a little more vocal now because it's an ongoing problem for them. I've enjoyed most of Moffat's run the past two series, and really enjoy Matt as the Doctor. There have been a few duds, along with more convoluted plot lines and stories. I've mentioned in the episode discussion threads that Moffat seems to sacrifice character development and plot development in favour of hitting these "moments". I can't quite explain what I'm saying properly but "that something missing" element that we all seem to be bringing up is what I think that is. RTD seemed to be well rounded. I dunno.

 

[RoJoHen]

You're right, RoJoHen, it does feel like Moffat's writing one draft and doesn't go over it again. And it's such a shame, because he used to be the best DW writer aside from RTD himself during the first four series' of NuWho.

It bothers me because, at the heart of all these scripts, there are great stories to be told. I think he has severely dropped the ball on River's tale, and I'm not sure if it can be salvaged next season. She was this mysterious time traveler, and we're supposed to believe that she and the Doctor fall in love and get married and go on grand adventures...but the Doctor, after all this time, still barely seems to know or care about who she is. They got married. Why? The Doctor has given no indication that he loves her, and the only reason River loves him is...um...because she was programmed by the Silence to be a psychopath? How does any of that make sense?

I still love the show, and I'm going to keep watching, but it's just so frustrating thinking about these things knowing they could be so much better if more effort was given to working out the details.

 

[RoJoHen]

The thing is I'm pretty sure people were just as critical with RTD and Tennant as they've been with Moffat and Smith. It just seems a little more vocal now because it's an ongoing problem for them. I've enjoyed most of Moffat's run the past two series, and really enjoy Matt as the Doctor. There have been a few duds, along with more convoluted plot lines and stories. I've mentioned in the episode discussion threads that Moffat seems to sacrifice character development and plot development in favour of hitting these "moments". I can't quite explain what I'm saying properly but "that something missing" element that we all seem to be bringing up is what I think that is. RTD seemed to be well rounded. I dunno.

I agree, and those "moments" that Moffat writes are absolutely brilliant. A scene as simple as the Doctor going to Amy and Rory's house for Christmas dinner made me want to start balling. The scene in "A Good Man Goes to War" where the Doctor confronts Colonel Runaway and warns him never to get to him through the people he loves sends chills down my spine. So many little, emotional moments are the main reason I keep watching, and I can let some of the plot holes and inconsistencies slide...but Moffat, if he is in fact as good a writer as he shown he can be, should be able to limit those inconsistencies a lot more than he has.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Exactly. The moments he hits are brilliant. It just leaves you with the impression that you wish the rest of the episode was like that.

 

[Jax]

Ah this shit again...

* Final ratings will most likely push Doctor Who X Mas Special 2011 above 10 million

* It scored the highest rating share of the day of people watching TV at that moment over 1 in 3.

* Repeat was 1.1 million

* BBC I Player numbers + Repeats show the *MAJORTY* of Doctor Who's audience is pretty much still there but more choose to watch later and since BBC is not funded by ad's this does not hurt the show at all infact the BBC are very happy.

* Worldwide audience has never been bigger.

* Name how many Scripted drama non soap shows entering their 8th cycle can attract a total audience of 8-10 million in this day n age in the United Kingdom whose population is just over 62 million.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I agree, and those "moments" that Moffat writes are absolutely brilliant. A scene as simple as the Doctor going to Amy and Rory's house for Christmas dinner made me want to start balling. The scene in "A Good Man Goes to War" where the Doctor confronts Colonel Runaway and warns him never to get to him through the people he loves sends chills down my spine. So many little, emotional moments are the main reason I keep watching, and I can let some of the plot holes and inconsistencies slide...but Moffat, if he is in fact as good a writer as he shown he can be, should be able to limit those inconsistencies a lot more than he has.

I've had similar thoughts. I watched "The Wedding of River Song," an episode that was twice as long as its story demanded (the whole first half is a pointless runaround), and I wondered what happened to the writer of "Blink." They are the same person, aren't they? What struck me is that the person who wrote them is different, though -- one's responsible for an entire series, the other's just a freelancer working on someone else's series. There are different demands on the two men, in terms of time, creativity, and responsibility. And I think the Moffat of "River Song" has spread himself too thin.

It's not that being Doctor Who's showrunner is outside of Moffat's skillset -- he's been the writer/producer of other successful series in the past, after all. It's that Moffat isn't good at the big stories. One story, a script or two, fits his artistic sensibilities in a way that a whole season does not. (It also probably fits his time better; I suspect that Moffat isn't capable of achieving the RTD feat of producing multiple consecutive series.) And I think he got lucky with season five. First, there was a gap year going into it, so he had a full year to get his ducks in a row. And second, he had a big story to tell and he pulled out all the stops for it. That's why season six feels so off compared to season five; he didn't have the same amount of time to consider it (plus, he had a new series, Sherlock, to worry about), he didn't have any new ideas (hence, his return to old successes, like River Song and timey-wimeyness), and thus he flailed in the same way that writers do with second novels and bands do with second albums, because they've used up all their good material. Season six exposed Moffat's limitations as a showrunner, and they don't bode well for changed circumstances for season seven and the anniversary.

What's unfortunate about this is that Matt Smith is quite enjoyable as the Doctor, and though it would be interesting to see what he could do with different material, based on the mutual praise society between Moffat and Smith it's likely that they will leave Doctor Who simultaneously.

 

[RoJoHen]

^Doesn't Moffat have other people working with him? Can't they help him out? Honestly, I like River Song, and I love that Moffat has stretched her story out over multiple years. The details of that story, though, are just all over the place. All he needs is a good editor and someone to bounce ideas off of. From the little I've gathered from interviews and things, he doesn't seem the type to play well with others, especially if those others are stepping on his toes.

What bugs me most, though, is the introduction of Amy's whole "time can be re-written" motto. I feel like Moffat is using it as an easy scapegoat for when things don't make sense.

 

[davejames]

I enjoyed the 6th season, but it did kind of feel at times like Moffat was trying too hard to do the "surprising" or "unexpected" thing with his stories. The clearest example being A Good Man Goes to War, and all the narrative shortcuts and skipping around that did.

But even so, I'll still take his nutty, time-jumping event episodes over RTD's tedious Dalek/Cybermen invasions any day. They may not always hold up well at the end, but at least they keep you guessing until then.

 

[Admiral_Young]

@RoJoHen of course Moffat has others to help him...he's the show runner. There are other writers and of course the executive producers, etc. I think though one of the main criticism that the so called "haters" have is that they think Moffat has surrounded himself with "yes men". I.E. his word is God and no one else has any other input. I find it hard to believe that Moffat would be that dictatorial.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

You know this thread is hilarious. So serious.

 

[Admiral_Young]

It's the internet. Which is always serious business.

 

[MacLeod]

Ah this shit again...

* Final ratings will most likely push Doctor Who X Mas Special 2011 above 10 million

* It scored the highest rating share of the day of people watching TV at that moment over 1 in 3.

* Repeat was 1.1 million

* BBC I Player numbers + Repeats show the *MAJORTY* of Doctor Who's audience is pretty much still there but more choose to watch later and since BBC is not funded by ad's this does not hurt the show at all infact the BBC are very happy.

* Worldwide audience has never been bigger.

* Name how many Scripted drama non soap shows entering their 8th cycle can attract a total audience of 8-10 million in this day n age in the United Kingdom whose population is just over 62 million.

Some people tend to overlook that it is one of the few programmes that can challange for a position in the top programmes of the week (even including soaps). And It's in what it's 33rd season now? (8th in it's current run).

One of the Irony's of it, is that the BBC have generally given off an anti Sci-Fi vibe. Yet DW is approaching it's 50th anniversary, whilst the BBC might not be showing the next series of Red Dwarf next year it is on a channel partially owned by them via way of BBC Worldwinde will be 25yrs old.

 

[Deckerd]

Which will be 25 years old, BBC Worldwide or Red Dwarf?

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Which will be 25 years old, BBC Worldwide or Red Dwarf?

Red Dwarf, I can't remember who but someone involved with the show, maybe Danny John Jules, had the temerity to say "Red Dwarf has never had any support from the BBC and it's been on the air for 25 years and is still going strong."

Yeah, 25 years and they've not even aired 10 series, they had over a decade off the air and years between various series. As much as I love Red Dwarf it hasn't had 25 years on the air.

 

[Pseudo]

Which will be 25 years old, BBC Worldwide or Red Dwarf?

Red Dwarf, I can't remember who but someone involved with the show, maybe Danny John Jules, had the temerity to say "Red Dwarf has never had any support from the BBC and it's been on the air for 25 years and is still going strong."

Yeah, 25 years and they've not even aired 10 series, they had over a decade off the air and years between various series. As much as I love Red Dwarf it hasn't had 25 years on the air.

Well quite. By that logic Upstairs, Downstairs has been on the air for forty years having produced seventy-one episodes over six series.