Do you think Voyager wasted its potential?

[Anwar]

I don't see how things really WOULD be all that different, I never have understood what that meant to begin with. If they really wanted to have the way things were done be different than they shouldn't have made the crew mostly Starfleet (or hell, even have it be a Starfleet ship) and they shouldn't have sent them to another part of the Trek Galaxy (that we already know is full of aliens). Maybe another Galaxy or dimension or something.

 

[exodus]

I don't see how things really WOULD be all that different, I never have understood what that meant to begin with. If they really wanted to have the way things were done be different than they shouldn't have made the crew mostly Starfleet (or hell, even have it be a Starfleet ship) and they shouldn't have sent them to another part of the Trek Galaxy (that we already know is full of aliens). Maybe another Galaxy or dimension or something.

Cause Trek has another premise, too explore strange new worlds and seek out new life. Too boldly go where no-one has gone before.

So if anything, Voyager still stuck with it's main theme when they put them in the DQ.

How do you chart a course home from another dimension?
Putting them in the DQ still gives the illusion of hope that they could get home.

 

[Anwar]

How do you chart a course home from another dimension?

How indeed?

Would've been an interesting time figuring that one out.

 

[The Overlord]

There's no evidence to the contrary that says folks DIDN'T hate the 8472 all along, and that they weren't PO'ed from the use of the Borg in "Scorpion".

Of course, there really was no way for them to use the Borg in a way that the audience would've liked, or any storylines for the 8472 beyond "Scorpion" that anyone would've liked, so it's all a big no-win scenario. It didn't matter what they did, no one was going to like it anyways.

Except in a debate you would have a burden of proof to prove your theory, rather then me having a burden of proof to disprove your theory. This is just your pet theory, not a fact.

 

[exodus]

How do you chart a course home from another dimension?

How indeed?

Would've been an interesting time figuring that one out.

Isn't his your scenario?

 

[Anwar]

There's no evidence to the contrary that says folks DIDN'T hate the 8472 all along, and that they weren't PO'ed from the use of the Borg in "Scorpion".

Of course, there really was no way for them to use the Borg in a way that the audience would've liked, or any storylines for the 8472 beyond "Scorpion" that anyone would've liked, so it's all a big no-win scenario. It didn't matter what they did, no one was going to like it anyways.

Except in a debate you would have a burden of proof to prove your theory, rather then me having a burden of proof to disprove your theory. This is just your pet theory, not a fact.

Given how the general consensus is that VOY got the Borg wrong in every appearance (including "Unity", "Scorpion" and maybe even their mention in "Blood Fever") and totally destroyed them as a threat I don't see how "Scorpion" and them being defeated by the 8472 doesn't count as the beginning of their decay.

And, it's rather clear from this attitude there was absolutely NOTHING VOY could've done with the Borg that the audience would've enjoyed even if they had told only ONE Borg story the entire series, and they were screwed no matter what they did.

If "Unity" had been their only Borg story, then the audience would just say that they forever ruined the Borg.

If Scorpion had been their only Borg story, then the reaction would just be that the Borg were ruined.

Totally unpleasable audience, complete no-win scenario.

Isn't his your scenario?

Sort of, I kept them in our Galaxy I just made them truly lost for 2 seasons instead of automatically knowing where home was.

 

[The Overlord]

[

Given how the general consensus is that VOY got the Borg wrong in every appearance (including "Unity", "Scorpion" and maybe even their mention in "Blood Fever") and totally destroyed them as a threat I don't see how "Scorpion" and them being defeated by the 8472 doesn't count as the beginning of their decay.

And, it's rather clear from this attitude there was absolutely NOTHING VOY could've done with the Borg that the audience would've enjoyed even if they had told only ONE Borg story the entire series, and they were screwed no matter what they did.

If "Unity" had been their only Borg story, then the audience would just say that they forever ruined the Borg.

If Scorpion had been their only Borg story, then the reaction would just be that the Borg were ruined.

Totally unpleasable audience, complete no-win scenario.

What consensus, you have not proved any sort of consensus. Given that most people seem to like Scorpion this consensus doesn't seem exist in the real world or you simply cannot prove it does. You are treating your pet theory like it is fact that cannot be challenge, I would strongly disagree with that.

 

[Anwar]

The audience says that Voyager ruined the Borg.

What was their first major appearance in VOY? Being beaten by random new aliens with all their power counting for absolutely nothing against them.

I'd say it's rather obvious what the start of their decay was.

 

[The Overlord]

The audience says that Voyager ruined the Borg.

What was their first major appearance in VOY? Being beaten by random new aliens with all their power counting for absolutely nothing against them.

I'd say it's rather obvious what the start of their decay was.

Its not obvious though, considering most fans like Scorpion. You are just presenting your theory as a fact and stating what other people's opinions without any real proof.

 

[Anwar]

They only liked Scorpion (an it's only to an extent, not really liking the whole thing) because they thought it would be the start of some 100-parter convoluted mess of a storyline that would take over the entire show. Once they realized it was just a two-parter, and that the 8472 weren't just some throwaway species for the Borg to easily destroy like they do to everyone else, they stopped liking it. AND they began to actively dislike it because it was the first sign that the Borg could actually lose in normal combat, to anyone.

 

[The Overlord]

They only liked Scorpion (an it's only to an extent, not really liking the whole thing) because they thought it would be the start of some 100-parter convoluted mess of a storyline that would take over the entire show. Once they realized it was just a two-parter, and that the 8472 weren't just some throwaway species for the Borg to easily destroy like they do to everyone else, they stopped liking it. AND they began to actively dislike it because it was the first sign that the Borg could actually lose in normal combat, to anyone.

Again theory, not facts. Your opinions are not facts. You haven't proven that people didn't just like Scorpion for what is was and that other episodes didn't ruin the Borg and species 8472. You passing your opinions as facts is undermining any sort of debating points you are putting forward.

 

[Anwar]

If people liked Scorpion, then they wouldn't be saying VOY constantly got the Borg wrong. "Constantly" means ALL of them, from start to finish.

Hell, if "Scorpion" had been their only Borg story they'd STILL say that the Borg were ruined.

 

[TheLobes]

I dont think Voyager should carry all the blame for what happened to the Borg. It was 'First Contact' that really screwed them up. God I hate that movie.

 

[Captain Verata]

I love First Contact but I agree that the Borg Queen really sucked as an idea. Voyager just took the idea and made it into something worse. I also liked Scorpion and liked Spieces 8472 at first. It is just later Voyager episodes that fleashed out the idea that Borg are really stupid and 8472 lost their appeal when they looked like Federation people. So this idea that Borg sucked because of Voyager(true) would mean that their one good apperance is bad too is really lame logic. From what I understand many fans like Scorpion.

 

[Anwar]

The number one thing said about Voyager when it comes to the Borg is that the show ruined them as a threat. Hardly anyone mentions "Scorpion" separately from that and some folks even say that Scorpion's teaser opening is what destroyed the Borg (where we see two Cubes easily blasted apart mid-sentence), easy implication that folks hate Scorpion just as much and see it as the beginning of their fall.

 

[Captain Verata]

Voyager did ruin the Borg. I am one of those people. I usually never single out Scorpion when talking about the Borg but I have seen others do so in the past on this board. I have heard Scorpion is considered one of the better of the Voyager episodes and one of the better Borg episodes in general. The beginning scene with Borg Cubes getting blasted away was great when I first saw and still think that. But none of that changes the fact that Voyager ruined the Borg(later on).

 

[Anwar]

...Which all began because VOY showed that the Borg weren't invulnerable, IN SCORPION.

Of course, there was no way for them to tell a story about the Borg that the audience would've enjoyed to begin with. It didn't matter WHAT they did with the Borg, the audience wouldn't have enjoyed it.

And until anyone points out how VOY could've told good Borg stories there isn't any alternative.

 

[Captain Verata]

They either needed to use the Borg less or come up with creative ways of using them. Which I didn't feel they did but it doesn't mean they couldn't have. I just don't understand your logic that Star Trek fans can never be happy.

 

[DigificWriter]

I don't know if 'wasted potential' is the best way to describe what happened with Voyager, although it definitely didn't reach its fullest potential, at least based on the original series bible (of which I have personally seen a copy). As per its original concept/premise, Voyager was supposed to be more along the lines of DS9, but what it ended up being/becoming was more akin to TNG; another thing that hindered the series from living up to the fullest potential of its concept and premise, as per the series bible, was the decision to more or less shove the conflict between the Starfleeters and the Maquis - which was an essential part of that concept - into the background to the point that it became non-existent after the first couple of episodes.

The series also didn't delve into the characters as much as its original concept and premise, as per the series bible, indicated that it would, which is a byproduct of it beocming more like TNG and less like DS9.

Regarding the Borg, they do work best in smaller doses, although given that they originated in the Delta Quadrant, it was somewhat inevitable that the writers would bring them into the series at some point. The one thing that I think I personally would've done differently with regards to the Borg was to 'seed' evidence of their presence throughout the quadrant and the series, with them only encountering the ship and her crew in a handful of 'major skirmishes'. Bringing in Seven was a good idea in concept, but it probably would've worked better in practice if the audience hadn't be 'de-sensitized' to the Borg by the time that it happened. Speaking of Seven, one thing that I do think I would've changed regarding her arc was to have introduced her (either named or unnamed) as the Borg's 'representative' during the events of First Contact in place of bringing in the concept of the Borg Queen, which, although neat in theory, doesn't quite jive in practice with everything we'd previously been told about the Borg as a 'species' up to that point. It would've given her character more emotional 'oomph' and let us, as an audience, connect more with her if we first saw her as the 'leader' of the Borg and then saw her liberated, especially if/once we started to get hints as to her personal history.

 

[Anwar]

And I'm saying that by the time of Voyager, all the creative ways of dealing with the Borg had been used up.

Conventional Weaponry is totally useless, TNG showed that. 40 starships attacking at once did NOTHING to the Cube.

Hack into the Collective mind? Already done to stop the Cube in BOBW, meaning all possible alternative ways of hacking into the Collective or something like are totally out of the question.

Use a natural phenomena to destroy the Borg? Already done in "Descent" to destroy the Renegade Borg ship with a Sun, meaning all natural phenomena like a black hole or a neutron star or an unstable wormhole they're tricked into going into, are out of the question.

Showing that there are other beings in the Universe who can defeat the Borg? Done in Scorpion, negative reaction, meaning the audience can't handle the idea that there is ANYONE who can fight the Borg.

With all of that, there's really nothing left.