Do you think Voyager wasted its potential?

[TheLobes]

They worked together to survive, and looked for wormholes, spacial rifts, and new technologies to help them. They were one crew - a Starfleet crew. Somewhere along that journey, they found a way back.

The show ends on the line, "Set a course for home."

See for me thats part of the lost potential, I never really felt like they were alone, working together to survive. They never seemed to run out of anything, they never seemed too daunted by the task ahead, and they never seemed to be anymore bonded as a crew than the former crews we saw.

I dont think the show should have gone all NuBSG, but perhaps they could have been a slightly more present element of danger.

As for 'we have no idea of the dangers we're going to face', they should have just watched some trek boxsets. They mainly faced the Kazon (Klingons), Hirogen (Jem'hadar) or the nuBorg.

 

[Anwar]

Most of the archetypes had already been used up by TOS, TNG and DS9. There wasn't much left to work with that wouldn't be someway derivative of an already existing Trek species.

And when they DID try, and created the 8472, the reaction was still negative.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Although I'm a fan of both, think neither Voyager or Enterprise really lived up to their potential. Voyager was Trek that just happend to be set in the Delta Quadrant, and Enterprise was Trek that just happened to be set 100 years before Captain Kirk. Most of the stories in each could have easily been TOS or TNG episodes.

Comparitively, SGU episodes couldn't be tweaked and made into SG-1 or SGA ones.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

For me it's not Voyager that lost it's potential.

UPN lost it's potential in Voyager.

Why? Because they were so restrictive on what the writer's could do. I don't blame the writer's, except Bermaga on occasion, I blame UPN if Voyager were bad.

 

[TheLobes]

Although I'm a fan of both, think neither Voyager or Enterprise really lived up to their potential. Voyager was Trek that just happend to be set in the Delta Quadrant, and Enterprise was Trek that just happened to be set 100 years before Captain Kirk. Most of the stories in each could have easily been TOS or TNG episodes.

This is pretty much how I feel about those shows, with a little bit of DS9 thrown in. I always felt that Voyager tried to combine the more episodic style of TNG with the serialised nature of DS9, ending up with something somewhere in between and not as good as either.

For me it's not Voyager that lost it's potential.

UPN lost it's potential in Voyager.

Why? Because they were so restrictive on what the writer's could do.

How were they restricted?

 

[HoneyBLilly]

For me it's not Voyager that lost it's potential.

UPN lost it's potential in Voyager.

Why? Because they were so restrictive on what the writer's could do.

How were they restricted?

They weren't allowed to do a lot. The network would say that it was too dark or too edgy or etc.

I'd have to go and look for the instances to show but I know there were a few.

UPN was a "family" network that didn't have place for violence or excitement.

 

[DS9]

For me, there are a few things that the show could have improved on to make it a better series.

As far as the initial premise/plot of the show, I think for the most part the writers stuck to that. However, in order for it to have been a better show, I believe certain characters could have had been written better for and have had more development, not have overused the Borg and maybe spent less time on Seven of Nine. I like Seven of Nine but after a while it kind of seemed to me that the show started to revolve around her and none of the other characters mattered as much.

I do like the fact that they made Tom Paris a better character after a while instead of him being a punk like he was at the beginning of the show. Once that happened he became my favorite charcter in the show next to Tuvok and Neelix.

 

[The Overlord]

Most of the archetypes had already been used up by TOS, TNG and DS9. There wasn't much left to work with that wouldn't be someway derivative of an already existing Trek species.

And when they DID try, and created the 8472, the reaction was still negative.

The reaction was negative, because Species 8472 went from scary evil villains to scared little sheep who aren't really that bad in the course of a few appearances. They completed changed motives and personality in a very short span appearances, lost all of their menace in the process and completely undermined Janeway's decisions in Scorpion. The negative reaction was due to bad writing, as usual.

 

[Anwar]

No, it was because they could fight the Borg and win. They destroyed the audience's view of the Borg as being unbeatable, and responsible for the Borg's villain decay. If they'd been in TNG then no one would care, but being a VOY villain race blacklisted them before the episode even aired.

 

[The Overlord]

No, it was because they could fight the Borg and win. They destroyed the audience's view of the Borg as being unbeatable, and responsible for the Borg's villain decay. If they'd been in TNG then no one would care, but being a VOY villain race blacklisted them before the episode even aired.

Actually I'm sure the fact they could beat Borg is what made Species 8472 so liked to begin with. It didn't undermine the Borg, because it just shows no matter how tough you are, there will always be someone tougher out there. It doesn't undermine the Borg at all, it makes these guys seem like the ultimate bad asses in terms of villains for Star trek.

Species 8472 going from that, to little sissies who go into a panic attack when they lose one battle, undermines them. If they can't take have their noses bloodied. This would be like Sauron giving up his plans to conquer Middle Earth, after losing one battle and being scared because of that, he would lose all his menace.

 

[Anwar]

It totally undermined the Borg. The Borg were only cool when they were invincible compared to everyone else, and showing that they could actually lose in straight combat to someone else, whether or not they were new aliens, destroyed their image totally. It's why folks keep saying that Voyager ruined the Borg, because they showed that the Borg could lose to someone in a normal fight. The 8472 were hated from their very first appearance.

And besides, there's no place to go but down for guys like the Borg and 8472 when you're dumb enough to overpower them so much in the first place and then have them appear more than once. Especially when you're in a show where there's no cannon fodder to throw at them.

It's just another case of no-win scenario for Voyager, they were screwed no matter what they did or what new aliens they created, no one was ever going to like any of it.

 

[The Overlord]

It totally undermined the Borg. The Borg were only cool when they were invincible compared to everyone else, and showing that they could actually lose in straight combat to someone else, whether or not they were new aliens, destroyed their image totally. It's why folks keep saying that Voyager ruined the Borg, because they showed that the Borg could lose to someone in a normal fight. The 8472 were hated from their very first appearance.

And besides, there's no place to go but down for guys like the Borg and 8472 when you're dumb enough to overpower them so much in the first place and then have them appear more than once. Especially when you're in a show where there's no cannon fodder to throw at them.

It's just another case of no-win scenario for Voyager, they were screwed no matter what they did or what new aliens they created, no one was ever going to like any of it.

Except the Borg losing to species 8472 doesn't mean they are no longer a major threat to the Federation, so it doesn't undermine their threat level to the Federation.

Are you sure they were hated by everyone at first? There is no real way you can prove that a majority of fans disliked Species 8472 from the start. A bet a lot of people did like them from the start and didn't think they ruined the Borg, the Borg were ruined later in Voyager. Losing to a vastly superior for is far more forgivable then failing to defeat one little ship.

It seems to me species 8472 were only disliked when they went from an ruthless, dangerous enemy to scared little sheep in the span of 4 appearances, that is why some people have a problem with the way were written, that development had no build up and came from no where and contradicted stuff from Scorpion. That's bad writing, it has nothing to do with them beating the Borg.

 

[Anwar]

Showing that the Borg could lose to ANYONE, regardless of who they were, ruined them. The audience had built up this overblown image of the Borg as this totally unstoppable force of nature, and showing that they could lose in straight combat regardless of the opponent totally ruined that.

The 8472 were disliked for being the instrument of the Borg's decay.

 

[The Overlord]

Showing that the Borg could lose to ANYONE, regardless of who they were, ruined them. The audience had built up this overblown image of the Borg as this totally unstoppable force of nature, and showing that they could lose in straight combat regardless of the opponent totally ruined that.

The 8472 were disliked for being the instrument of the Borg's decay.

Nice theory, but you haven't offered any hard evidence that in in particular is why people thought the Borg or Species 8472 were ruined because of the events in Scorpion and not later appearances.

 

[Anwar]

There's no evidence to the contrary that says folks DIDN'T hate the 8472 all along, and that they weren't PO'ed from the use of the Borg in "Scorpion".

Of course, there really was no way for them to use the Borg in a way that the audience would've liked, or any storylines for the 8472 beyond "Scorpion" that anyone would've liked, so it's all a big no-win scenario. It didn't matter what they did, no one was going to like it anyways.

 

[RyuRoots]

There's no evidence to the contrary that says folks DIDN'T hate the 8472 all along, and that they weren't PO'ed from the use of the Borg in "Scorpion

I'm not even going to address the other inanity since it's been refuted sensibly an absurd number of times. But as for THIS point, uh...yes, there is. The popularity of the episode Scorpion should be an indicator. It's generally one of the show's higher-rated eps (both halves) and if you've ever bothered to read posts about that episode or 8472 in general, most people think that 8472 were pretty cool and LIKED that the Borg had an more powerful adversary for a change. It was new and interesting.

 

[Anwar]

For five seconds maybe. They saw the Borg lose, then were sitting back thinking "The next time the Borg will have adapted and these guys will be totally screwed."

When that didn't happen, and the 8472 turned out to be beyond easy adaptation, is when the cries of "The Borg aren't the super-duper foe they were in TNG, they're ruined!" came in.

 

[RyuRoots]

For five seconds maybe. They saw the Borg lose, then were sitting back thinking "The next time the Borg will have adapted and these guys will be totally screwed."

When that didn't happen, and the 8472 turned out to be beyond easy adaptation, is when the cries of "The Borg aren't the super-duper foe they were in TNG, they're ruined!" came in.

Oh, you're a riot. Well, I know this thread isn't going anywhere because you'll just refuse to acknowledge things like you are here, so I'm done. Have fun.

 

[Anwar]

The should've introduced the 8472 aliens back in TNG, in "Q Who?" in fact. Have Q teleport them into the middle of a battle between the Borg and the 8472 with the Borg barely winning/running away. It would have proven Q's point of there being tougher beings in the Galaxy (two of them in the middle of a war) and it would have made it BLATANTLY obvious that the Borg can be damaged and destroyed in straight up combat.

 

[Saito S]

For five seconds maybe. They saw the Borg lose, then were sitting back thinking "The next time the Borg will have adapted and these guys will be totally screwed."

When that didn't happen, and the 8472 turned out to be beyond easy adaptation, is when the cries of "The Borg aren't the super-duper foe they were in TNG, they're ruined!" came in.

Everyone into the HateDome!

The first 10,000 fans to enter will receive a free "THE AUDIENCE WOULD HATE IT NO MATTER WHAT BECAUSE IT'S VOYAGER" t-shirt!

Showing that the Borg could lose to ANYONE, regardless of who they were, ruined them. The audience had built up this overblown image of the Borg as this totally unstoppable force of nature, and showing that they could lose in straight combat regardless of the opponent totally ruined that.

The 8472 were disliked for being the instrument of the Borg's decay.

Nice theory, but you haven't offered any hard evidence that in in particular is why people thought the Borg or Species 8472 were ruined because of the events in Scorpion and not later appearances.

There ISN'T any such evidence, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. There is, in fact, ample evidence to the contrary, but he still insists that "the audience" hated 8472 from the very beginning simply because they were able to beat the Borg, and that "Scorpion" is a hated ep that was considered to be the beginning of "Borg decay."

Although I'm a fan of both, think neither Voyager or Enterprise really lived up to their potential. Voyager was Trek that just happend to be set in the Delta Quadrant, and Enterprise was Trek that just happened to be set 100 years before Captain Kirk. Most of the stories in each could have easily been TOS or TNG episodes.

Comparitively, SGU episodes couldn't be tweaked and made into SG-1 or SGA ones.

Not a fan of ENT myself, but I think this is a very accurate assessment. The phrase "TNG in the Delta Quadrant" has been tossed around many times, but I think it's deserved (and not only that, VOY was just "TNG - only not as good - in the Delta Quadrant", to me at least). There was too little done to actually explore the idea behind the show's premise and setting in any meaningful way.

For me, there are a few things that the show could have improved on to make it a better series.

As far as the initial premise/plot of the show, I think for the most part the writers stuck to that. However, in order for it to have been a better show, I believe certain characters could have had been written better for and have had more development, not have overused the Borg and maybe spent less time on Seven of Nine. I like Seven of Nine but after a while it kind of seemed to me that the show started to revolve around her and none of the other characters mattered as much.

They "stuck to" the premise in the strictest sense: they didn't do anything to change the reality of "Voyager is stuck in the DQ and trying to find a faster way home." But ONLY in the strictest sense; they didn't DO anything with it for the most part. Every now and then, there were some really good, "this could only happen in the DQ/only on 'Voyager'" type episodes, which were often very interesting.

This is what I mean when I talk about wasted potential when it comes to Voyager: for the most part, the setting was simply a background piece. It didn't mean anything. They had given us this idea that some things about how things worked on this ship, on this show, would be different than in other Treks, in fundamental ways - and why wouldn't they be different, they're trapped in the Delta Quadrant! Yet that wasn't the case on the show.

The later seasons - while I enjoy them more than the earlier ones - did have a problem of slipping into "Star Trek: Janeway and Seven (also the Doctor)" at times, which I agree was very unfortunate.