Do you think Barclay and Troi had sex when they went on a date at the end of "The Nth Degree"?

[Jayson1]

I find it both curious and also a little disturbing how a male's view of "sexual liberty" for a woman is that she'll have sex with any man who wants her to at any time he wants. A woman's sexual liberty has absolutely nothing at all to do with men. I feel the idea that the Enterprise keeps a woman on board so men can "relax" by going to her for sexual favors is a bit repugnant and barbaric, I so deeply apologize for my harsh language and tone, I just strongly feel a need to express my feelings on this. Please know I'm not upset at anyone in particular, it's just a bit of a personal and touchy subject right?

I still imagine "sexual liberty" as being very different from peoples' views of like "sex any time all the time", and in my mind it's more a liberation from societal pressures both ways, both for not having sex and for having sex. I feel people would have intimate relations with people they wanted to for their own reasons, and no one would judge you for either having sex or abstaining from sex, but I believe if there's any sort of expectation people are just going to have sex at any time with anyone, that's totally not sexual liberty, if I'm making sense?

Like I saw someone asking if Reg is a virgin, and I'd say in the 24th century no one would care, and I don't feel anyone would even ask or even think about him like that. And he wouldn't be concerned at all if he were. I don't believe you'd see a huge obsession with sex anymore than you'd see a false paragon of chastity (today it's not about really a virtue but a control for women).

lol oh dear I think I've got a new third choice: how about whether or not Reg and Deanna had sex or not, it's entirely their business just between the two of them?

I think the idea they were going more was the hippie idea of free love. Sex all the time with no inhibitions. Well that idea bent with some of Roddenberry's sexism in the mix as well. I mean when you think about Roddenberry while he has some very wild very almost hippie idea's of sex he himself wasn't really a hippie. He used to be in the military and was a cop and was making Trek when hippies were just starting to do their thing. He was basically a horndog whose sexual stuff was hidden by the sexual attitudes at the time and also the kind of Hollywood way of doing business as well. I am guessing he had a little more "Mad Men' in him than been a true hippie.

Jason

 

[Marynator]

Oh thank you so very kindly @Lance and I totally and completely understand what you mean about words being inelegant for expressing thoughts, lol. I also try so very hard not to get carried away with my responses and worry I'm sounding harsher and meaner than I'm intending to me, you know what I mean? I find it so very refreshing and lovely here when we can respond to each other positively like you just did and work at co-operation and understanding instead of just conflict, you don't know how much your response means to me, I might sound silly but I actually have a few tears of relief, lol.

Please don't get me wrong at all, I think I sort of understand where you're coming from, about like "free love" and everything, I just felt some comments seemed just a little male-centric, if you know what I mean, and I really can't blame you at all for that, I can just sort of share my own perspective and thoughts?

@Jayson1 oh I just read your post as I'm typing here, lol! Yes I think you're making a lot of sense, unfortunately as well intentioned as Gene might've been, I totally agree you're right he still unfortunately has some sexism in there, and some ideas are still rather possessive of women, and are still looking at sexual liberation not as for women being what women want but still being women what men want, you know what I'm saying? I feel a sort of exercise that might help, is when picturing what women's liberation would be, to completely remove men from your thought entirely and not factor in at all (I'm not talking about lesbianism, lol), if I'm making any sense?

 

[Jayson1]

Oh thank you so very kindly @Lance and I totally and completely understand what you mean about words being inelegant for expressing thoughts, lol. I also try so very hard not to get carried away with my responses and worry I'm sounding harsher and meaner than I'm intending to me, you know what I mean? I find it so very refreshing and lovely here when we can respond to each other positively like you just did and work at co-operation and understanding instead of just conflict, you don't know how much your response means to me, I might sound silly but I actually have a few tears of relief, lol.

Please don't get me wrong at all, I think I sort of understand where you're coming from, about like "free love" and everything, I just felt some comments seemed just a little male-centric, if you know what I mean, and I really can't blame you at all for that, I can just sort of share my own perspective and thoughts?

@Jayson1 oh I just read your post as I'm typing here, lol! Yes I think you're making a lot of sense, unfortunately as well intentioned as Gene might've been, I totally agree you're right he still unfortunately has some sexism in there, and some ideas are still rather possessive of women, and are still looking at sexual liberation not as for women being what women want but still being women what men want, you know what I'm saying? I feel a sort of exercise that might help, is when picturing what women's liberation would be, to completely remove men from your thought entirely and not factor in at all (I'm not talking about lesbianism, lol), if I'm making any sense?

Yep you make sense. I didn't live in the 60's but to me one thing I have always found interesting is how women's liberation and the hippie moverment sort of combined but maybe still were not always on the same path. The mini-skirt which felt like liberation from the comformity and women being stuck in the kitchen was also about sex appeal as well. I think also back then they were trying to change society more than fix it if that makes since. They were not looking at getting more women in power so to speak. They wanted to tear the whole system down so there was no power. I think people just wanted freedom without any responsibilities. Living on a hippie compound was like a good idea back then. Granted a great deal of the issue was also about Vietnam and people being drafted and also I am guessing some were into it just for the sex and drugs as well. Like I suspect maybe Roddenberry was. Then the is the issue which even makes me wonder today about social issues is how many people really were hippies and how many women were into women's lib as in that they fully embraced those things as opposed to simply agreeing with some of the views but not everthing. It's not like you had to be a hppie or into women's lib to be against the war or believe in equality. Not everyone is going to fully embrace ever concept. To many people with two many variety if views to really nail down exactly what the main view is on anything, really. I think people in the end believe in certain concepts like racism is bad and sexism is bad and war is bad but then the details of what those things mean to them becomes fuzzy and can be different from individual to individual.

Jason

 

[Lance]

The sexual liberation/sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s was largely halted by the aids epidemic in the 1980s, when people were confronting the reality that all this free love had to be done in a responsible and measured way. In some ways as a society in the 21st century today, we live with legacies of both the free love era and the post aids era, though medical science and a greater understanding of how important it is to watch out for STDs means we also have maybe a slightly more cautious/puritanical streak than the hippies all bonking each other at a certain music festival.

All of that is a broad brush though, I guess we can only hypothesize that future humanity would be even further evolved medically and therefore maybe the 'free love' spirit has made a comeback in the 23rd and 24th centuries? If Risa is any indication, no-one seems particularly concerned about catching anything from each other's jamaharons.

 

[Jedman67]

My feeling is that Riker and Troi were more or less Friends With Benefits on and off throughout TNG until Insurrection, when they started to become A Couple.

Growing up, my familys views on sex was that its something special and unique; and should be saved until marriage. In the future, sex could be considered much the same as a hug or a handshake; two people want to have sex so sure why not? Who cares, whose business is it? (except the audience).
However, its been portrayed on TNG that sex is more of a "relationship" thing; Picard rarely gets action and prefers it that way; Riker will bone anything that moves, Data explores sexuality as a means to become human. Troi invites the viewer to explore relationships.

I don't really feel comfortable with that view - reading articles on college sexuality, it appears that many find that constant, "free" sex is not all that satisfying if lacking a relationship, or crave more of an intimate approach.
On the other hand, an excellent and heartbreaking article by a young widow after her husband dropped dead; of her need for physical intimacy without attachments.
Life is complicated.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Oh thank you so very kindly @Lance and I totally and completely understand what you mean about words being inelegant for expressing thoughts, lol. I also try so very hard not to get carried away with my responses and worry I'm sounding harsher and meaner than I'm intending to me, you know what I mean? I find it so very refreshing and lovely here when we can respond to each other positively like you just did and work at co-operation and understanding instead of just conflict, you don't know how much your response means to me, I might sound silly but I actually have a few tears of relief, lol.

Please don't get me wrong at all, I think I sort of understand where you're coming from, about like "free love" and everything, I just felt some comments seemed just a little male-centric, if you know what I mean, and I really can't blame you at all for that, I can just sort of share my own perspective and thoughts?

@Jayson1 oh I just read your post as I'm typing here, lol! Yes I think you're making a lot of sense, unfortunately as well intentioned as Gene might've been, I totally agree you're right he still unfortunately has some sexism in there, and some ideas are still rather possessive of women, and are still looking at sexual liberation not as for women being what women want but still being women what men want, you know what I'm saying? I feel a sort of exercise that might help, is when picturing what women's liberation would be, to completely remove men from your thought entirely and not factor in at all (I'm not talking about lesbianism, lol), if I'm making any sense?

To me the "Women's Lib." Stuff on TOS was stupid. I remember watching that show in re-runs when I was about nine years old and thinking it was stupid that the women wore mini skirts and makeup and lavishly styled hair next to men that looked like Chekov, Scotty, and Sulu.
I didn't see it as being equal at all.
And I was nine years old!
I thought with TNG it would be different and even though they had the eye candy and Troi in the cheerleader outfit, they showed a few men in the same cheerleader out fit. ( two thumbs up)
As I look around in reality today I am saddened by the FACT that women Still want to be eye candy for the most part.
Make up, phony hair color, stupid high heal shoes, reveling clothing. It's sad really.

 

[Jedman67]

To me the "Women's Lib." Stuff on TOS was stupid. I remember watching that show in re-runs when I was about nine years old and thinking it was stupid that the women wore mini skirts and makeup and lavishly styled hair next to men that looked like Chekov, Scotty, and Sulu.
I didn't see it as being equal at all.
And I was nine years old!
I thought with TNG it would be different and even though they had the eye candy and Troi in the cheerleader outfit, they showed a few men in the same cheerleader out fit. ( two thumbs up)
As I look around in reality today I am saddened by the FACT that women Still want to be eye candy for the most part.
Make up, phony hair color, stupid high heal shoes, reveling clothing. It's sad really.

Its a societal thing. Women "dress up", men "dress formally".
My wife has three dresses and a bunch of "tunic tops" for formal-wear. And about 2,000 pairs of shoes.
I have two suits, and assorted slacks and button down shirts that I wear for work or formal events.
The only time I wore makeup was when I went to get a photograph taken. etc.

Unless you mean on TV, then I agree with you.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Its a societal thing. Women "dress up", men "dress formally".
My wife has three dresses and a bunch of "tunic tops" for formal-wear. And about 2,000 pairs of shoes.
I have two suits, and assorted slacks and button down shirts that I wear for work or formal events.
The only time I wore makeup was when I went to get a photograph taken. etc.

Unless you mean on TV, then I agree with you.

I think TV reflects society and vise versa.
Almost all of the women I know color their hair. I only know a couple of men that cover the grey.
Men don't wear ridiculous bodily injuring shoes day after day after day. A lot of women do. Most women wear make up everyday. Most men don't. Most men don't wear constrictive shoes and clothing on a daily basis a lot if not most women do.

I noticed on Trek, most episodes and versions that there would be a man wearing a baggy outfit and the woman would be wearing a firm fitting tight outfit. Just like we see today.
Yesterdsy I went into the store to buy some shorts ( short pants) to wear on hot days.
My options were, 2 inch inseam shorts, I'm too old for that look. Or skin tight stretch stuff. Not what I want to wear when it is over 100F. The women's "cargo style" shorts have hand pockets to small for s credit card and cargo pockets that might hold and iPhone 4.
Yes, I went and bought men's cargo shorts.
Sad really.
I fear that 400 years from now women will still be objectified as they have always been.

I'll bet your wife has three pairs of comfortable shoes out of the 2,000.

 

[Jayson1]

To me the "Women's Lib." Stuff on TOS was stupid. I remember watching that show in re-runs when I was about nine years old and thinking it was stupid that the women wore mini skirts and makeup and lavishly styled hair next to men that looked like Chekov, Scotty, and Sulu.
I didn't see it as being equal at all.
And I was nine years old!
I thought with TNG it would be different and even though they had the eye candy and Troi in the cheerleader outfit, they showed a few men in the same cheerleader out fit. ( two thumbs up)
As I look around in reality today I am saddened by the FACT that women Still want to be eye candy for the most part.
Make up, phony hair color, stupid high heal shoes, reveling clothing. It's sad really.

I don't think of it as people wanting to just be eye candy. I think the idea that people want to feel sexy at times is something everyone sort of feels both male and female. I just don't think people want that to be the only thing people see about them. I know as a man who has been overweight basically my entire life and shy as well that part of me would love to have someone see me as sexy because i'm not sure I have ever had that feeling. I can't speak for women but I am guessing if you grow up just being seen as a sex object you would have a opoisite view. Maybe the issue also is split down the line between people who society see's as sexy and not sexy as well which also might not be just about gender. I think what the goal is or maybe should be is finding that balance. People want respect but people also want to feel sexual as well.
Then you toss in Love into the mix which is also something everyone wants and it can be hard thing to achieve.

Jason

 

[Marynator]

To me the "Women's Lib." Stuff on TOS was stupid. I remember watching that show in re-runs when I was about nine years old and thinking it was stupid that the women wore mini skirts and makeup and lavishly styled hair next to men that looked like Chekov, Scotty, and Sulu.

Oh so totally, how I wish you would've seen the women be more like Majel Barrett's character from the first pilot, right? I totally feel that's how women should've been in TOS?

Yes, I completely hear everything you're saying, it's all about patriarchal pressure, we have to be a certain way because it's expected of us, and it just gets into our minds as it's drilled in from such a young age, right? We're taught we only really have value if men find us attractive, and we're told we have to spend our lives pleasing men whenever we can and filling their expectations, and so many women still don't understand. I'm guilty of it too, lol oh dear I think I've had some insecurity issues, but I'm getting better, and I try to dress how I want to and not because I'm appearing sexy.

I won't wear high heels, my highest are about three inches, I have about maybe ten pairs of shoes and only two have anything resembling a heel, I just hate them and absolutely refuse. I've had men tell me my heels are too low, like really? I do wear makeup most of the time when I go out, but I've just gotten so used to it I feel naked otherwise, but I try to be as subtle as I can. I've never colored my hair, but I haven't really gone grey yet either, but I plan to just let it go. My sister colors her hair, she started going grey in her 20s, but I've tried to tell her how amazing she looks with her grey, but she still does.

Oh dear I've also bought men's clothes before, lol. You're so right about pants, but their pants don't seem to be shaped right for my hips unfortunately, but I also totally hate low-rise, it isn't easy to find good blue jeans even. Women's pockets are purely decorative. I do like men's t-shirts sometimes, they're cheap and loose and feel comfortable if I find just the right size. I hate how like most women's t-shirts now are like totally form fitting and hug your sides tightly or else just look really weird, you know what I mean?

I do feel things are going to change in a few hundred years, I mean like what just a couple hundred years ago we were wearing corsets and were barely more than property/slaves, right?

 

[Marynator]

I don't think of it as people wanting to just be eye candy. I think the idea that people want to feel sexy at times is something everyone sort of feels both male and female. I just don't think people want that to be the only thing people see about them. I know as a man who has been overweight basically my entire life and shy as well that part of me would love to have someone see me as sexy because i'm not sure I have ever had that feeling. I can't speak for women but I am guessing if you grow up just being seen as a sex object you would have a opoisite view. Maybe the issue also is split down the line between people who society see's as sexy and not sexy as well which also might not be just about gender. I think what the goal is or maybe should be is finding that balance. People want respect but people also want to feel sexual as well.
Then you toss in Love into the mix which is also something everyone wants and it can be hard thing to achieve.

Jason

It's different, as a man you're not told your entire life you only have real value if you're viewed as being sexy.

 

[Jedman67]

I think TV reflects society and vise versa.
Almost all of the women I know color their hair. I only know a couple of men that cover the grey.
Men don't wear ridiculous bodily injuring shoes day after day after day. A lot of women do. Most women wear make up everyday. Most men don't. Most men don't wear constrictive shoes and clothing on a daily basis a lot if not most women do.

I noticed on Trek, most episodes and versions that there would be a man wearing a baggy outfit and the woman would be wearing a firm fitting tight outfit. Just like we see today.
Yesterdsy I went into the store to buy some shorts ( short pants) to wear on hot days.
My options were, 2 inch inseam shorts, I'm too old for that look. Or skin tight stretch stuff. Not what I want to wear when it is over 100F. The women's "cargo style" shorts have hand pockets to small for s credit card and cargo pockets that might hold and iPhone 4.
Yes, I went and bought men's cargo shorts.
Sad really.
I fear that 400 years from now women will still be objectified as they have always been.

I'll bet your wife has three pairs of comfortable shoes out of the 2,000.

Ha, she rarely wears makeup except for special occasions. She refuses to wear high heels; and I insist she only buys comfortable shoes.
But yes, I agree its hard to find exactly "what you want" as there are certain societal expectations. Places like Old Navy and Target are often better options for finding more comfortable casual clothing than larger chains.

 

[Jedman67]

My sister is nearing 40 and she sometimes colors her hair, as shes going "slightly" grey. My mother in law definitely colors her hair, lol.

It's different, as a man you're not told your entire life you only have real value if you're viewed as being sexy.

My daughter is only 3 but she sure as hell will grow up knowing that she needs to be comfortable with herself and to hell with what others think, that "value" as a person is internal, and people who insist on treating her otherwise are not going to be worth her time.
And I say this after telling her like six times to go to the bathroom before school this morning, lol.

 

[Nakita Akita]

I don't think of it as people wanting to just be eye candy. I think the idea that people want to feel sexy at times is something everyone sort of feels both male and female. I just don't think people want that to be the only thing people see about them. I know as a man who has been overweight basically my entire life and shy as well that part of me would love to have someone see me as sexy because i'm not sure I have ever had that feeling. I can't speak for women but I am guessing if you grow up just being seen as a sex object you would have a opoisite view. Maybe the issue also is split down the line between people who society see's as sexy and not sexy as well which also might not be just about gender. I think what the goal is or maybe should be is finding that balance. People want respect but people also want to feel sexual as well.
Then you toss in Love into the mix which is also something everyone wants and it can be hard thing to achieve.

Jason

Well I was ALWAYS viewed as a sex object for the most part. Nobody cared if I painted and played the oboe and loved animals,
They just wanted to look at my long legs, green eyes and curly long hair. I could have been speaking gibberish and they wouldn't have cared.
And just do you know, all of the above and I always liked a 'Solid' man.

 

[Jayson1]

It's different, as a man you're not told your entire life you only have real value if you're viewed as being sexy.

It's not as overt but that message is kind of their for men as well. The good looking jocks against the nerds. Fat people being made fun of. Also the fear of rejection because of your looks is pretty common with guys who aren't good looking. One difference is men have had more options to them to take advantage of those feelings such as science or the arts to get respect that way. One thing I think that must be the same for men and women though is a kind of bitterness and dislike for the mainstream. The idea of fitting in and being "normal" is something people kind of hate. Yet maybe still kind of want as well. Mixed feelings and all that. I have no desire to be what society expects you to be but even I sort of enjoy stuff like sports and action movies so it's a little complex how people I think feel about these things.

Jason

 

[Marynator]

Well I was ALWAYS viewed as a sex object for the most part. Nobody cared if I painted and played the oboe and loved animals,
They just wanted to look at my long legs, green eyes and curly long hair. I could have been speaking gibberish and they wouldn't have cared.
And just do you know, all of the above and I always liked a 'Solid' man.

Don't you just love when a guy is talking to you about your passionate interest, and you go on and on, and he's asking nice questions and everything, until he segues into something physical, and you realize he didn't give a crap about what you're talking about your whole time, he's just humoring you with fake interest and then he gets really pissed off when you're not interested romantically, because you owe him for him listening to you? I feel most crushed from his betrayal, like I was being sincere and thought you actually cared, you know what I mean? So sorry, *triggered*

@Jayson oh dear it's still just not at all the same, like you still talk about men being jocks and nerds, you see it's something based on your interests and talents? Women are nothing but a body, that's it.

Oh dear I'm so terribly sorry I feel we've changed this thread's subject? I do feel we've exhausted our original topic though, this discussion does sort of feel kinda related and organic? I hope we don't have to close this message, someone please tell me if we need to move our conversation somewhere else? I am so very sorry.

 

[Jayson1]

Well I was ALWAYS viewed as a sex object for the most part. Nobody cared if I painted and played the oboe and loved animals,
They just wanted to look at my long legs, green eyes and curly long hair. I could have been speaking gibberish and they wouldn't have cared.
And just do you know, all of the above and I always liked a 'Solid' man.

I know. That was what I was talking about in terms of people having the oposite view on one who never feels like they are sexy. The inability to find some middle ground where people get respect and yet still get to feel all those other feelings as well has been a problem with society. People want to have the entire range of the human experience such as respect,love, getting to feel sexy and getting to feel important but society doesn't always let people have it. Not sure how to fix it. Society is going to keep going no matter what anybody thinks and while things are done to try and fix it like fat shaming and female equality but if deep inside people still feel those old feelings I wonder if change is really happening in society. It's almost to fast to be believable. That's where the internet becomes kind of unreliable. People say the right things and even want to believe them I suspect but people have also been programmed for so long that it can't be all 100% true.

Jason

 

[Nakita Akita]

Ha, she rarely wears makeup except for special occasions. She refuses to wear high heels; and I insist she only buys comfortable shoes.
But yes, I agree its hard to find exactly "what you want" as there are certain societal expectations. Places like Old Navy and Target are often better options for finding more comfortable casual clothing than larger chains.

I was IN Target yesterday.
I just bought the men's shorts.
Hand pockets will hold my wallet.
Cargo pockets will hold a lot of stuff not just a small flat phone.
And they are longer than a two inch inseam.
I wore make up for like about three years. Then I stopped. I pretty much never see men wearing makeup and never a man I dated.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Don't you just love when a guy is talking to you about your passionate interest, and you go on and on, and he's asking nice questions and everything, until he segues into something physical, and you realize he didn't give a crap about what you're talking about your whole time, he's just humoring you with fake interest and then he gets really pissed off when you're not interested romantically, because you owe him for him listening to you? I feel most crushed from his betrayal, like I was being sincere and thought you actually cared, you know what I mean? So sorry, *triggered*

@Jayson oh dear it's still just not at all the same, like you still talk about men being jocks and nerds, you see it's something based on your interests and talents? Women are nothing but a body, that's it.

Oh dear I'm so terribly sorry I feel we've changed this thread's subject? I do feel we've exhausted our original topic though, this discussion does sort of feel kinda related and organic? I hope we don't have to close this message, someone please tell me if we need to move our conversation somewhere else? I am so very sorry.

Well I was raised with three older brothers and a mom who was raised by an amazing woman who during the 1940's thought that if her daughter wanted to work on car engines it was mighty fine just as she let her sons bake cookies and cakes and pies.
If some man "thinks" something about me.
I never assume anyone "is" anything.
I just ask them. Or tell them. ( I also don't expect them to be a mind reader. )
In your scenario I would have just told the guy," hey , I just told you a lot of stuff about myself and I feel like if I didn't look the way I do you wouldn't even want me here with you. I don't think you are interested in the real me at all. So probably we don't have much in common. I have to go now. I have a dentist appointment in an hour."
( yep, dental appointment. Used that one at all times of the day and night and weekends too)
I never played games. I never assumed that someone knows what I'm thinking. I just straight out tell them.

 

[Jayson1]

Don't you just love when a guy is talking to you about your passionate interest, and you go on and on, and he's asking nice questions and everything, until he segues into something physical, and you realize he didn't give a crap about what you're talking about your whole time, he's just humoring you with fake interest and then he gets really pissed off when you're not interested romantically, because you owe him for him listening to you? I feel most crushed from his betrayal, like I was being sincere and thought you actually cared, you know what I mean? So sorry, *triggered*

@Jayson oh dear it's still just not at all the same, like you still talk about men being jocks and nerds, you see it's something based on your interests and talents? Women are nothing but a body, that's it.

Oh dear I'm so terribly sorry I feel we've changed this thread's subject? I do feel we've exhausted our original topic though, this discussion does sort of feel kinda related and organic? I hope we don't have to close this message, someone please tell me if we need to move our conversation somewhere else? I am so very sorry.

I know it isn't the same . But doesn't it come together in one sense and that is rejection for something you want or don't want? Society is judging you in away you don't want it to be. The details change because of gender but from a indvidual level it kind of feels the same. People don't respect or like you for who you are but because of some superfical reason such as looks. To me the issue sort of has a "big picture" element when you look at society overall but when you narrow it down to a individual level most people do have some of the same pain and feelings I think. You would think this would make people come together but I think it's what makes many people on the right so angry and mad at the world. They have pain as well and they feel it gets ignored.

Jason